DeadManTalking

I'm attending a tournament this next weekend and I'm kinda in a bind. Having just recently switched to Guild I don't have many models available to me, and due to there being no information on whether or not they are requiring painted models my pool is even less. Luckily I have a friend who is willing to let me borrow his stuff so that I don't have to switch back to Neverborn (unfortunately I don't believe he has any wave 4 or 5 models). So I'm trying to come up with one maybe two lists that are Jack-of-all-trade that share some models so that I don't have to make my friend lug a whole ton of stuff just for me. The other major issue is I don't know what any of the schemes or strategies are going to be. Here's the one list I've come up with so far... Perdita- 7 cache, Fastest Draw, Trick Shooting, Vengeance Bullet Enslaved Nephilim Frank- Debt to the Guild Peacekeeper- Debt to the Guild Guardian Brutal Effigy 2x Guild Hound

Thats how I saw it as well. Then add the Defensive Stance+2 from the Guardian and Ryle suddenly becomes a huge pain to remove!

So as I read it if a Construct is power looped and has El Mayor on it, it can use the Defense or Willpower of another power looped model as well as gaining the +2 from El Mayor. For example: Ryle and a Guardian are Power Looped and Frank puts El Mayor on Ryle. Therefore Ryle would be Df 8. 6 base from taking the Guardians stat and then +2 from El Mayor. Is this correct? The counter argument being that Power Loop says that they take the printed value of a stat from another model.

Sorry for the double post. Just looked at the upgrade and it does in fact take up the models upgrade slot. The beta version didn't. That does make the rider slightly less effective than I thought, but I still think in a Dreamer crew where you can push him around give him extra AP, heal, and remove conditions from him. I'd still say he's worth it.

I don't have the card in front of me so I may be wrong but doesn't Serena's upgrade say that it does not take up an upgrade slot or something to that effect?

I completely agree with you. A lot of the time when I debate putting the Hooded into a list I always consider what he's giving me over Nekima or even splitting his points up to get two models. Sometimes other models win out over him, but now with the addition of Serena I think he's your best pick in a Dreamer crew if you are looking for a high cost beater. Making him Nightmare and still being able to have A Thousand Faces on him to adapt to what your opponent brings is so good. Being able to Empty Night him puts him above all other models at that cost level in my opinion.

Speaking specifically about the Hooded Rider as it is the only one I currently have personal experience with, I find he's a great model to take in certain scenarios. When a lot of killing is needed I think hes great to take, he is very durable turn 3 and onward and his damage output from the same point is phenomenal. Hes more mobile than Nekima who I think is his main competition and tends to be more durable if you can keep your opponent from getting to him early game. Also with the recent addition of Serena to the Neverborn, the Hooded rider becomes ridiculous when run with the Dreamer.

Thank you guys for the replies! I ended up grabbing Mctavish along with both Nellie and Perdita's box sets. Looking forward to representing the Guild in GG18!

Hello Guild members! I am a long time Neverborn player looking to make the switch to Guild. I love my black blooded nightmares, but I want to try something different in GG18 and my meta doesn't currently have a competitive Guild player. Just thought I'd come on here and see what people's opinions are on good first purchases. I do plan on starting with Nellie and I'm probably also going to pick up Perdita's box at the same time, mostly for Frank. What would be one good box to pick up with these crews in mind?

I whole heartedly agree with you @Adran you shouldn't be playing to force yourself to need initiative and if you don't get it you lose. Unfortunately you can't predict what your opponent will bring nor can you predict what they will do with their crew once the game starts. Sure you can have an idea, but I've played plenty of games against people running lists that I was familiar with and then they use it in a completely different way. Certain scenarios in tournaments almost require you to win the initiative or face down the alpha of some super killy crew without reprisal. So I can play towards not needing initiative, but at the end of the day theres going to be at least one turn where initiative is too important to leave to fate. Thats why I feel she's an auto-include in neverborn lists. Even with her in your crew you can't always win initiative, but what she offers on the rest of her card justifies taking her just as much as Ill Omens.

I wasnt trying to argue my opinion as better than others. I was called out as being entirely wrong when I was giving an opinion. Sorry for double post.

Must have not read all of my posts. Like I said, I was giving my opinion not stating it as a hard fact of every meta or the game itself.

Except I said at the beginning of my posts on this thread that I was giving my opinion. Thats what this thread is about, sharing our thoughts on a summoning dreamer list. In my meta it is a hard fact that doppelganger is an auto include. We just dont see a reason to not take her. But if it makes you feel better Mr. internet warrior, yes it is possible to play a game with neverborb without the doppelganger and win. Congrats, you have the bigger keyboard!

You're missing the point. It's my meta's opinion that doppelganger is an auto include in competitive neverborn. My meta has won several times using this logic at the tournament you are using as a metric for competitive level. That doesn't mean the guy who won this year is wrong it just means he runs list differently. Him winning doesn't mean my meta's logic is wrong either as that's one tournament win, when the past several years have been either one of the Bilz brothers or someone from my meta.

In the the Dreamers crew before the update to Lucid I would agree with you on the card costs of running the crew. Now Dreamer has swung to a more support style of play. Summoning two models at most and then buffing them up to send at your opponent. Making two stitches, one fast and one with all its ap can do major damage to your opponent and are probably some of your strongest summons. Now imagine summoning a teddy after your opponent has activated, giving it fast and launching it down your opponents throat. With doppelganger you can now secure initiative and flurry with teddy before your opponent can retaliate. @santaclaws01 saying my meta is wrong is such a laughable statement. I play with multiple people that have won Adepticon, some of them multiple times so obviously they have some clue of what they're talking about. I was simply sharing the opinion of my meta. Yours may be different but that doesn't make mine wrong.

I guess the real question is how competitive are you looking to be? Obviously playing the game you are attempting to win, but are you practicing for a tournament or is this just a friendly pick-up game? I play in a highly competitive meta and all our players non-Neverborn included agree that every competitive Neverborn list needs the Doppleganger. Initiative is just too important, on top of being a good scheme runner and secondary beater if need be.

True but again I was talking about the initial alpha. So Chompy isnt on the board yet. You could do that the following turn, but I guarantee if you leave Chompy on the board for a whole turn your opponent is going to end something after him that can kill him.

I was looking at it from your first alpha strike with the combo. Dreamer would be on the board because you haven't built up his waking condtion yet. Even with Chompy on the board the max activations you could get in a row without your opponent going is 4 and thats if you end a turn with the two and then start the turn with the combo as well. Yes you'll get another activation out of Chompy if your opponent doesn't gank him off the table, which is a good possibility, but your opponent will get at least one activation before Chompy can go again.

True, but there are things that can ignore Incorporeal. In my experience if my opponent wants Dreamer dead they dont struggle too much in ganking him. The Viks fot instance who just got a huge boost will devour the Dreamer.

I've been wanting to try this as well. If you can delay activating the Dreamer you could potentially get 4 activations without reprisal. End of turn one or two send the Dreamer in get his waking up to bring out Chompy. Chompy goes and ends the turn, then win initiative with the doppleganger then go with Chompy, bring out the kid when he's done and chain activate. On dreamers second activation I'd probably summon 3 daydreams and or alps then whack something to bring out the big guy again. The main issue I see with it is the necessity to deal damage with the Dreamer to get his waking up. If your opponent stops even one attack it could mean the Dreamer is out of position and vulnerable.

Which nephilim are you running with A Thousand Faces?

I have played a lot of summoning Dreamer in a rather competitive meta, including a lot of the guys who run and compete in the adepticon tournaments as well as hosting local tournaments every if not every other month. I'm just stating this to show my experience not to try and make my opinion seem better than others. When I play summoning Dreamer there are a few things that are just stapled to his card. First his upgrades, Obviously if you want to run him as a summoner you need Dreams of Pain. Otherworldly is also a necessity, especially against the guild(soo much ranged firepower), if you want your summons to survive. Lastly On Wings of Darkness, yes he doesn't really care about the flight portion but the card draw is pretty much essential. Some will argue that the extra card isn't worth it but card draw is one of the most powerful mechanics in the game so I will always take it. When it comes to his cache again there is only one option for me and that is a full cache of 7. In my meta its rare to see anyone running masters without a full or near full cache, I almost never see a competitive list that runs a master at their base cache. This is especially important for Dreamer as I usually stone for cards every turn unless I get lucky and draw a monster hand. Theres too many uses for stones to not take as many as you can; sure you may not end up needing them all but its better to have them and not need them than to run into a situation where you wish you had more stones. When hiring a crew there are three models that I always take with a summoning build. Daydreams are first and I always take 3, with the recent updates to his summoning mechanic they are crucial to ensuring the summoning machine keeps working. For 6 stones you get 3 activations which is fantastic in helping you maintain activation control. Next is the Doppleganger, there are tons of reasons why this model is an auto-include and I'm sure if there isn't a thread already there could be one devoted to just this model. In my opinion she should be in every single competitive Neverborn list. Lastly is Mr. Tannen, I know there are people on these forums that would disagree with me on this, but this guy is fantastic in a Dreamer crew. If you get lucky and draw the 13 of Masks or the Red Joker you can bring in a Teddy, myself and other players in my meta have had games where we summon upwards of 3 Care Bears in a game. Sure its possible you wont see those cards, but he also just helps the dreamers summoning in general with that +2 to all mask cards. On top of that he provides extra protection for your master with his aura, and if they line up a big beater to charge something important you can hit them with his ranged CA attack the lowers their walk and charge characteristics. After I've added all of these to my list I fill with things to help with schemes. The knights from Titania's crew are fantastic most notably the Tooth and Thorn, with both of them in your crew Dig Their Graves is an almost guaranteed 3 points. I've also had great success with running the Hooded Rider in the boys crew, and now that he can become a nightmare ala Serena Bowman I think hes going to be seeing a lot more play.

I still find that Dreamer does the growth thing better than other masters. 50 SS Neverborn Crew Dreamer + 4 Pool - Dreams of Pain (5) - Otherworldly (2) - On Wings Of Darkness (1) Daydream (2) Daydream (2) Nekima (13) - The True Mother (2) - Rapid Growth (1) Doppleganger (7) Young Nephilim (6) Terror Tot (4) Terror Tot (4) (exported from CrewFaux) Turn one run the tots and young into defensive positions, you're attempting to create a funnel through which you will drag your opponents models pouncing them as many times as you can. Summon the twins and try to give them fast or at the very least remove slow with empty night. Same thing with the twins place them in the funnel with Lelu giving them pounce and focusing then Lilitu drags whatever you want dead into your crew. Try to get the got to get the killing blow but if whatever you're dragged in survives you charge it with Nekima and then grow.

Take them with Dreamer and hand out fast, healing aura, 6" push with free melee attack and ability to summon lilitu for lures in pounce range.

Step one: buy Mr Tannen Step two: summon Teddies (also make your other summons easier) Step three: profit