Fetid Strumpet

Yup. And I’m only tossing ideas out because I like the discussion, not from any belief that any of them will ever happen.

I think give her Bully or Tools for the Job, Bully would be my preference, and she's probably close to fine. Possibly additionally replace either of her bonus actions with Lashing Tendrils with no trigger.

I think the framing is a little off if I'm honest. I'm not sure it's accurate to say he mainly picks OOK models. Seamus has some decent keyword models, it's just that they don't have a lot of internal synergy with him directly or with each other, and I think, that clunkiness, as you correctly identify, is the biggest issue. That issue, coupled with the fact that some of his iconic high cost model(s?) not being good compounds the issue. Honestly at this point, I think fixing Sybelle would probably quite a good chunk of any complaining about the keyword. I think there is an obvious appetite to bring her and have her work well with the minions in the Keyword. Fixing her, and if they agree with the current VWC interpretation of Bete's rules, calling it out specifically in the next FAQ to make that interpretation generally known, would probably cause a good amount of any issues with the keyword die down. Not every model in a keyword has to be good, but from my general observation, people are more accepting of nameless chaff being off, or bad. They generally like the named characters to actually be worth putting on the table.

Yes and no. Yes in that it's a big reason why Red Chapel doesn't work synergistically because attacking WP wasn't their thing initially. Passing activations was. The best Red Chapel models right now don't even really care that Scarlet Seduction is on them, or don't even have it. They've set up the crew so that in theory they want you to be engaged by their mid to low range models so their bigger models can punish you, with lots of ways to give out distracted, and triggers to up damage for that, and abilities that make being engaged with Red Chapel model is debilitating. But noting actually rewards you much for doing it. Unexpected ferocity isn't reliable because it isn't baked into anything (which is why my suggested fix for Rotten Belles is a bonus action to give a Wild Hunt type aura for Rams against models engaged with them), and there are no punishing enough effects in keyword or easily accessible in faction to REALLY capitalize on the negative WP aura. I honestly don't think the entire keyword needs a redesign to work with that one ability. They just need little tweaks here and there to make them work more consistently. Sybelle's specific issue is she is too expensive for a model with her level of abilities. I mean let's be realistic, they cut down significantly on the extra AP generating abilities since 1 and 2e, which is a good thing, but at its absolute most bedrock base, Malifaux is a game of resource management. You exchange wounds, AP, cards, and positioning for VP. Since the reduction in extra actions, the more you spend on a model the more it needs to bring to the table to justify it's cost. a 10SS model with 2 actions and no critically always useful bonus action, and no always active passive that massively justifies it's cost is a model that doesn't get taken. Easiest way to fix Sybelle, Give her some kind of control over her triggers. I have long been a proponent of giving her Tools for the Job, but I recently looked at Mr. Ngaatoro and Bully actually seems tailor made for her. She'd almost be worth it just with that, since her 10SS cost actually then becomes an asset allowing her to pick and choose the triggers she gets on her actions. Makes her whip useful, allows her to actually get Bump in the night off reliably since she could choose pulled here and there, makes her dmg line very scary and formidable, Makes Beckoning Call from a 10ss model worth taking as she could reliably take either trigger. I still think she'd need a little bit better bonus action to really be worth it, and I'd still suggest replacing either of her bonus actions with Lashing Tendrils though if she was given Bully I wouldn't put a trigger on it. But Bully, alone, could get her pretty close to being hirable.

Fair, and in GG0 I experimented with that extensively. It's definitely something they'd need to consider if they did that change. The issue is, if you want the 1st turn corpse BR combo, there are ways to get that that are better, cheaper, or both. And sure a negative on a terrifying duel you can't do anything about (sorta) is a downer, but the cost to the player with the Mourner is pretty significant to get that to work. Mourner has to take GST, likely be engaged with a model with Ruthless (since that's the issue we are talking about), and have another Red Chapel model with Scarlet Temptation engaged with the ruthless model, and be that way when the Ruthless model activates. Which is a 13 point combo, with positional elements required. I personally don't think it's an issue, but given that it could lead to an experience, while not broken, might not be enjoyable, it is something to think about.

Worded it the way I did because if the proposed change was adopted then if the enemy interacted to drop a scheme, if it was within the 3 inch aura then she could count it as a corpse and control its placement. If you worded the control aura to only when killed it wouldn't affect that aspect, which + or - to that is certainly debatable, for a totally non existent rule with little to no chance of actually being done, but considering I'd see them as a control piece I'd keep it the way I suggested. Not sure it makes a huge difference to prevent her from removing the Ruthless if they target her. If you buy GST for her, that's 8 stones spent basically to help overcome ruthless, on a model that doesn't really do anything else, and still requires positional elements to get to work. For simplicity I'd just let it be a basic aura. That's probably the simplest and cleanest fix for her. She'd still, I think, rarely ever get taken in Red Chapel, but she'd have a defined role that would be situationally useful. And I think she'd get taken OOK with Jack fairly often? The question is, would changing Weeping Widow to that break the Pandora Bubble, since Pandora would get to have a model with that for free?

Or directly under themselves, if I'm remembering LoS to markers directly under a model correctly. I considered that. The ability would still allow her to serve as a positional harassment piece. If you have to get to a position to stop her from seeing it, it's still serving it's purpose of messing with marker placement. It means if you need your maker in a specific place she is near with the aura up, you have to spend more movement to get into a position where the marker still drop where you want, but be blocked from her sight at the time of the drop. Additionally it then makes more of the movement tricks in Red Chapel actually have an additional vector of synergy with her. Enemy model drops a marker behind themselves so Mourner with Aura up can't turn it into a corpse. Then Belles Lure, Doxies Take by the Hand, Sybelle's (Yes she's still bad) Pulled Here and There / Beckoning Call then can be used to get the model blocking LoS Marker off of it so Bete (apparently) can burn it for a charge, Seamus can eat it for Cause for Celebration, Dr. McMorning can use it as part of his cost to get a Flesh Construct on the board, or whatever other use for a corpse your crew might have. Again, I'm not seriously considering anything is gonna happen with underperforming models, especially in a faction that as a whole seems to be doing ok. I just like the conversation.

Interesting discussion topic, however from a consistency standpoint, it would undermine a design goal of 3rd edition. 2nd edition had upgrades galore, and while I personally liked that system, it had many detractors, and made entry to the game confusing and overwhelming for new players. Certainly design goals can be changed as more information comes out, but in this case I don't see that being all that useful. Adding generic upgrades would be going back to a design paradigm they explicitly rejected.

I'd disagree on both points, but honestly my time away has kinda mellowed my desire to really argue many points. If it actually works as mentioned, and thus far it looks like it, that does indeed make Bete a model to at least consider fairly frequently. Back to suggested errata. I have had suggestions for Mourners in the past and I had one or two other possible suggestions, just for conversation pieces. The first and easiest, though it would have some big ramifications elsewhere, because they aren't the only one with the ability, would be to tweak Weeping Widow so that instead of requiring the Ruthless model to be in the aura, it requires the target of the ruthless model to be in the aura. Essentially if you have terror or manipulative and are close to the Mourner, Ruthless models, wherever they are, don't get to ignore your abilities. That would be the only change, as it would allow them to be a tech pick to help mitigate Ruthless abilities if that was something you were worried about. They'd personally be a strong consider for me going into TT given how often I run into Fuhatsu. The second more involved suggestion would be to remove Weeping Widow and replace it with an ability that says in a 6" aura, whenever a corpse marker is dropped within the aura, the Mourner gets to decide where it drops, following all the legal placement rules. This change I suggest because their Mourn the dead bonus action I never get much use out of because as the opponent chooses how their own markers drop when they die, they never position corpses in a position that you could capitalize on them as scheme markers. And trying to go the route where I put corpses in position to use as scheme markers is just less efficient or reliable than just hiring a scheme runner to do it the traditional way. Allowing her to make the choice would make that ability a little more useful. But it would also be useful with the additional second suggested change. Add an additional bonus action that is an inversion of the first. Add The Dead Mourn as a bonus action, which would let the Mourner, until the start phase, treat enemy scheme markers as corpses. That would allow mourners to be soft control pieces. If a mourner is standing in an area the opponent is likely to want to put schemes in, and she has the suggested ability up, they are going to need to shift her or kill her to be able to put their scheme marker where they specifically want, or she will shift them to a worse location, since they will be dropping a marker she considers a corpse. Additionally it would allow her to serve as a counter schemer, allowing models that use corpses to burn the opposing scheme markers in her area away and use them as fuel for their own abilities. Additionally, and more importantly, it would allow counterplay. If the opponent has a marker near the center of the table for leave your mark, and Reva, for example, would love to use that marker as an attack node for ethereal reaping, the Reva player would have to activate the mourner, get her into position, use the ability, then wait for the opponent to get a chance to respond before Reva would get a chance to use it, which, if it was critical, the opposing player would get a chance to respond to. They could block LoS to the marker, kill or move the mourner, or do some other more impactful response elsewhere on the board before the Resser player could take advantage of it. I think it would make mourners still very situational hires, because you'd never hire one unless you reasonably thought the opponent was going to be dropping schemes, and I think they'd mostly be harassment pieces, since if their abilities mattered they would draw an inordinate amount of aggression down on their head, but you'd be basically paying 6 stones for an ability the forced your opponent to take them into account and deal with them, possibly ahead of other pieces in your arsenal. Thoughts?

? Really? Was that just a joint interpretation decision to make a sub par model better, or what? Outside of the VWC doesn't the first non-italicized sentence prevent that from working, or have I just not been playing it incorrectly all this time?

I'll respectfully disagree with Bete, but I will hedge my disagreement on mostly her performance in GG0. I had gotten some games of GG1 in before Covid hit, so it is entirely possible GG1 made her somewhat decent, though again from my limited experience I'd still disagree, though I'll certainly try her again extensively if I get more games in at some point. My main issue with her is that she brings one good thing to the table, Trail of Gore. I find when she's most useful, it's as a Model that rarely attacks and basically serves as an 8ss scheme marker destroyer. Which in certain applications is good, but 8 SS good, which also requires the bringing of specific other models to generate the resources for her to actually utilize her defensive mechanics reliably? I'm dubious that's really all that valuable. But I'm willing to take another fresh look to see if GG1 improved her.

She used to have a obey type trigger on her whip from her upgrade in 2E.

Red Chapel suffered from redesign right at the tail end of the open beta. Seamus got fixed in a very solid way at the tail end, but the crew as a whole just kinda fell apart. If they fix the crew it would take some finessing because you'd want the crew to synergies better inside itself, without adding to combos outside the keyword. Seamus doesn't get substantially better if his keyword crew works as well as or slightly better than the all stars. If you superpower the crew then you increase his power, and he, himself doesn't need a big boost. Sybelle and Bete are just my personal favorite topics because neither model has really been all that good in all editions of the game.

Just did my first game in over a year over the weekend too, virtual though. For fun I'll toss my two cents in on The Red Chapel keyword, though honestly I'm doubtful anything will happen with them. Seamus and CCK are fine. I would not change red chapel killer to give dmg. While it would be more useful Seamus as a master is pretty strong, and really doesn't need a personal buff. Jumping through hoops to get the bigger dmg is fine. Changes to his crew I think are warranted, just to make bringing those models more viable than the hire All Stars all the time as currently formulated. Thus I'd focus changes on making the crew more consistent with each other but make sure those changes don't interact outside the keyword, to prevent increasing the overall power of a Seamus lead crew. Doxies are fine. Sybelle, awful. Compare her weapon to the new explorer electro whip weapon, and the cost of said model. Compare Sybelle to the Malisaurus Rex which are ostensibly doing the same job of beater plus crew support, and she's just criminally over costed. Toshiro does a better job as secondary beater with primary crew support better than Sybelle does, with Sybelle's own minions. Honestly I've just swapped out Sybelle for Toshiro in lists designed to specifically synergies with her and he still does the job better. Proposed fixes: Drop her cost to 7 and wounds to 9. Or Remove the minion restriction from Bump in the Night, Give her Tools for the Job, and replace I've got your back with Lashing Tendrils with the Rip and Tear Trigger. Bete: Compare to Hinamatsu, granted she's 1 stone more, but still, similar roles, similar survivability, much better effect for Hinamatsu than 1 stone would indicate. Bete should probably be less of a dedicated killer since she is a tiny bit more survivable, but my biggest problem with Bete Noire has been reliability. You pay 8 stones for a model that hits about as hard as a 6 stone model when she pops up she doesn't often reliably get her bonus charge action, and you don't get to control her positioning as well as you want. My proposed fix Give her Mobile Warrior and she's probably fine. I'd personally also bake a mask into her attack, though that would need testing. Belles: I think they are pretty bad, I've heard some people really like them. Possibly they are just destined to not be very good this edition dependent on what the GG document says. I wouldn't honestly change them too much. My suggested fix to just give them a tiny bit more crew synergy would be to give them a bonus action that is similar to wild hunt in that anytime a model with the red chapel keyword targets a model within 1" of the Belle they can add a ram to their action. This would allow the Belles to function as set up pieces, they go in, lure models to them and then the rest of the crew gets to use their attack triggers reliably as long as they are close to the belle. And such a change is balanced by activation order requirements. Belle would have to go before the beaters, activate the ability, and then stay alive to utilize it. We all know that isn't always super feasible in mid turns where you often need your critical beater to go early. As a note I'm note just a malisaurus fanboy, this was my suggested change to belles long before he came out, I just think its a good bit of design for internal crew synergy. Mourners: The problem with them is that Grave Robbers do their ostensible job for the same cost. At least from a red chapel perspective, that don't actually do anything relevant to winning a game. They don't fight, or scheme well. They don't support the crew well. I don't honestly know how I'd solve the issue with them. The only unique thing about them is the Anti-Ruthless ability, which is a fine counter pick option that could give them legs, but it's too limited to be of much use. If I was forced to pick something I'd increase the range to LoS on Weeping widow.

Scarlet Temptation is pretty much a non issue in the list. It doesn't do much. I mean it's nice but mostly forgettable. As for Bete, it's purely a not enough bang for the buck. Look at models like Mr. Graves who at least up to the last time I played was regularly derided as not being good enough in most lists, and he is almost but not quite another order of magnitude more effective than Bete. You are paying a gigantic premium for her supposed survivability. But that survivability only matters if she is repeatedly and reliably able to bring her lower impact abilities to bear. You aren't going to be able to cost efficiently spam zombies every which where with Seamus, so when she pops out of a zombie you really really need to get the charge action to fire with the attack. And usually, I find at least, that doesn't happen very often. Usually the corpse is so far out she maybe can get back in and get 1 attack off, or get reengaged, or the corpse is too far out to be a meaningful target, or the corpse is in strategically important area, but is so full of models there is no way to pop up with a path to charge, or no way to pop up without starting engaged. I just find she doesn't synergize very well with Red Chapel. And yes, Trample, you should absolutely try yourself and make up your own mind. I find some things to be true, but that doesn't mean they will 100% be the same for you. Personally I think if you are gonna go the corpse generation route you might fair better with Toshiro. For the same cost as Madam Sybelle he is leaps and bounds better, and has focus for Seamus or another beater built in on Foul Mouthed Motivation. I'd also recommend as a general rule bringing a Nurse. Tools for the Job is an amazing ability, which works very well with Seamus and has all sorts of tricks you can pull with it, and she's another way to get focus on your models. She also combos nicely with the emissary, giving him focus when Seamus can't easily keep popping next to her for her focus, and using bedside manner to protect and reposition the emissary so its harder to lock down his ranged attack.

I've tried that list. It's not very good. That variant list suggested I've tried too. I find GST on a Doxy to be better on paper than in practice. If you are taking GST in the same list as Yin is should be on her so she heals back from using her Dark Bargin Ability. Optimizing for Bete Noire I've found to be counter productive since her biggest problem is spending 8 for a hybrid model that doesn't do a lot. When she pops out of the corpse marker I've found in about 90% plus times either the best corpse to pop out of is too far away for her to really utilize the charge action it gives her, or there is a model so close to the marker she wants to use she doesn't get to charge because she's engaged when she pops up.

Planted Roots and Deadly Pursuit.

Mine too. I only play 1 crew that doesn’t have H2W on most of their models and I still get moderate and Severe dmg inflicted on my models all the time. I mean one of my previous suggestions to correct Bump in the night was to give masks to red chapel models when one of the participants of the duel was in the aura. But I don’t think you could give out any suit since that could either get out of control real fast or shackle your design space in the future.

An opponent really doesn’t have to respect a min 5 dmg from Sybelle as all that impressive. They really don’t because at that point her dmg, for one swing, assuming you’ve set it up all right, is 5/5/6, and in order to get that she has to hit you, after spending a SS, and connect using a ram, So... considering how difficult it is to even get to that you might as well cower in fear and respect the possibilities of just about any model hitting you for their severe because it’s a heck of a lot easier for just about any model to hit for severe than it is for Sybelle to hit you for 5. And considering that set up 5/5/6 is laughable dmg. You want to kill my 6 wound model that’s gonna still take 2 swings. Sybelle doesn’t need Leap. Leap is frankly too common in the game and it’s utility is shutting out many other models in favor of those who have it. Seamus is fine. He doesn’t need mucking with. If anything the only thing that could help tone him down if his crew gets reworked is to remove the corpse marker portion of Cause for Celebration. And that’s if his crew is improved to the point that they are better than the versatile models and out of keyword models he’s currently taking. If they make them approximately the same then It’s possible nothing would need to be done. Its an interesting idea about giving suits out, but open ended like that... no. I saw what happened in 1e with the filth list and we don’t need to go back to that. I’d be ok with giving out 1 suit, for specifically Red Chapel models only, so that the interaction could be more tightly controlled. Giving out any suit you want to any minion you want could be as bad for the health and design of the game as opening Nicodem’s summoning to all undead resser minions was in 2, and making the old version of Agent 46 was to Guild.

Killjoy isn’t actually all that highly valued. If Killjoy didn’t give out the upgrade he did I wouldn’t actually hire him. I see Killjoy as an 8stone model tax I have to pay to get access to the 2 stone upgrade I want on Titania. I hardly ever see the Arcane Emissary even talked about, let alone taken. Where as the Carrion Emissary is taken because of the criteria I mentioned above, it has a bonkers bonus action that provides as much value as an extra action. I mean in concept I could agree with you, but if any such models accord with that design ideal they are few and far between. So sure in a theoretical world sure I agree with you that it is *possible* to deviate from the criteria I mentioned above, but in practical everyday terms, probably not. So again I’ll stand by my opinion. Totally fine if you disagree but I would argue there are far more concrete examples supporting my supposition than otherwise.

Valedictorian is another good point. Archie was so bonkers good he really overshadowed everything and I forgot about her. I don’t like how they fixed Archie but at the least he isn’t in every crew any more.

Counterpoint then? Name a commonly taken and universally agreed good model of 10ss that doesn’t have an extra action, bonkers bonus action, and or amazing ability that provides about the same value. I feel my point can be proven by how often Archie, Manos, Rusty Alyce, and the riders are taken. I can’t think of any high cost models that don’t conform to that basic premise that are taken, let alone universally agreed to be good. I mean you can see in Sybelle and some of the other models in her cost bracket what it looked like the designers were trying to do with high cost models. The problem is as soon as you let some models break a pattern by getting better than other models of their cost structure, they become the default standard value. I mean compare Rusty Alyce to Sybelle and try to honestly explain to me why they are the same value proposition.

Yin seems better for this. Constriction actually seems relevant.

@Maniacal_cackle no she doesn’t. You are looking at theoretical maximums and not how often those happen or the resources to do so. 1 Stone for 1 extra dmg unless THAT is the dmg that kills a troublesome model is not a good trade. Especially since you might not even get that dmg since you might not hit. I’ve personally found that in actual practice a 3/3/4 dmg spread is less good than a 2/4/5, especially with the prevalence of easy focus, and focus lasting across turns. Your red chapel change is better, more in keeping with a better design philosophy, but it’s too good in my estimation. Seamus does not need to be made better at all. If anything he might need to lose the corpse marker portion of cause for celebration if they actually fix his keyword. He’s already the focal point of the crew, he doesn’t need to be better. So at least in my estimation looking at fixing the keyword through him isn’t really the way to go. The solution is to actually make the rest of the models valuable to take. Belles, Sybelle, Bete Noire, and Mourners are the problem, and the solution is to tweak them in some way. My general solutions, which aside from Sybelle have not been tested: Give Bete Mobile Warrior and bake a mask into her attack. My biggest problem with Bete is she is unreliable. If there is a corpse on the board it might not be in a position to be useful, and more commonly there is an enemy model standing near it in some way that prevents Bete from using the free charge she gets from unburying. Allowing her to always charge when she comes back would allow her to more regularly get the mobility or extra attack from coming back and would also give her value in being very hard to lock down. And allowing her the mask would allow her to do tricks like attack- bury, unbury & charge in another area of the board, attack. Her dmg isn’t better than many 5 and 6 stone models so she needs something extra. Sybelle, as discussed above, give her tools for the Job, change her bonus action to apply to all enemy models that enter the aura not that begin engaged. Still a minor effect and still forces her to activate early, but actually gives better return on investment, and then change bump in the night in some way. Remove the minion restriction, or change it to give distracted, or change it to give masks to red chapel models in the aura, or just something else. Mourners: Would need testing, but possibly give them an ability similar to Metal Gamin That drops a corpse in B2B with them at the end of their activation. Possibly replacing the free market they get at the beginning of the game. Belles: bake the mask into their Lure and give them a bonus action that puts up an aura that when an enemy takes an interact action in the aura the belle can remove 1 distracted from said model to cancel the interact. Not sure how well all would work or if combined they would be too good, but that would be my starting point.

I like just for the thought exercise figuring out how to fix the keyword. I don't like your change to Red Chapel Killer as you aren't fixing the keyword, you are basically applying a gate that says you must hire these bad models to get use from your master. I don't mind synergy, but as was proved by the 1e to 2e and now 3e versions of Jakob, if you want synergy the model must be good and the required synergies work on top. Not being able to have focus in the current edition is really bad depending on model and role. A primary dmg dealer with a mostly usable once per turn gun requiring the model he targets to be engaged with his models to have any chance of doing real dmg? No thank you. Make the bad models better, not the other way around. Your change to bump in the night is far better than what she has now, but I don't think it would fix her. You still have to hire bad models to get effect out of it and that only works if the enemy model gets moved into an area around Sybelle, AND end engaged, AND it has to not be their turn? So instead of getting Focus on a minion, we get Distracted on an enemy? Possibly better, but really not by much. She's 10 Stones and she isn't a beater, she isn't very good support, and there exist better models in both roles for her cost even if hired out of keyword such as The Dead Rider, Manos, and Toshiro. A 10 stone model HAS to have better action efficacy then lower cost models, and she just doesn't. And just improving Bump in the night won't do it. She needs Nimble, or Leap (not really just an example), or Flurry, or something like ride or Fly with me, or a just flat out amazing bonus action that is the equivilant of an actual action. Or she needs to get basically that from an ability on the front. And right now she just doesn't have that. What she currently is a model that has about as much effect as a 7ss model you spend 3 extra soulstones on for wounds. Having played Titania a bunch now I'd basically rate her as about as effective as an autumn knight, and she's way more expensive. I'm not sure it would do enough but my current thoughts on Sybelle, that we've tested a little in the past on the table, would be to remove the minion restriction from Bump in the Night, and give Sybelle Tools for the Job, to give her a little more control over her triggers.