OhBee86

It defintely seems like a glass cannon. Personally, I haven't hired Katashiro into my crew; I prefer to summon them. I've found that Minako works best with either Misaki (so that I have access to Shang's Arcane Reservoir) or McCabe (who just draws cards.) Any additional cards gives me a greater chance of getting what I need to summon a Katashiro turn 1.

You couldn't be more right! Would you believe me if I said that was my plan all along? I actually helped build the list my opponent was running, but I'll admit my experience with Nekima is limited. I didn't know what her shortcomings were, so this information is invaluable. Thank you! Inhuman Reflexes on Nekima was something we underestimated, but I suspect we'll definitely be seeing it in our next game. We were so blinded by her damage output that we didn't consider her limited survivability. I'm actually going to be showing my opponent this, as it will absolutely benefit us both.

My opponent wasn't running Inhuman Reflexes on her, but that definitely would've stopped the Katashiro pain train right in its tracks. I just hope my opponent doesn't see this thread and pick up on that tech...

During a game of TT Last Blossom vs NB Nephilim, my Katashiro found itself staring down the greatsword-wielding demon Nekima. It was able to fend off death by giving it a second Flicker token, and then it was my activation. Knowing my lowly construct wasn't long for this world, I activated it in a seemingly futile attempt to knock off a hit or two from my opponent's Master. Blown by the Wind got me a free attack (which I used my third Flicker token on), and I cheated in a high mask to succeed and trigger another attack. That got me another attack (you guessed it... Flicker), which tacked on some more damage. Now I could start using my AP, so I proceeded to attack again and again, using Flicker tokens all the while. I cheated in another formidable mask to trigger my fifth attack of the activation. After everything was all said and done, my Katashiro faded out of existence and Nekima was down half her wounds. I understand that luck had a bit to do with it, but triggering 5 attacks in a single activation meant that I had the law of averages on my side. My free 5ss model was able to go toe-to-toe with the "great" Nekima herself, and leave the lady beast more than a little bloody. So, I ask you: are Katashiro really good, or does Nekima need some love?

That's a very valid point. There's no way a static point cost would be equal for all recipients. Going from 4-5 is hardly worth 2 SS, but going from 6-7 definitely is.

if I recall correctly, Wyrd actually published a campaign along these lines during M2E. Players could buy upgrades for their models that carried over from game to game. Some upgrades were similar to the generic upgrades we have now, and others were single-use items. Deaths also carried over, so it was kind of a battle royale concept. It was a ton of fun. You became attached to certain models, so it was epic when they succeeded and tragic when they fell.

I definitely think this is the true way, but sometimes it can be difficult for companies to implement changes that fully address the issues a game may be having. I'm not saying this proposal is the best solution, or that it will be perfect out the gate in terms of balance. What I am saying is that it puts some control in the hands of the players to be able to make small adjustments on the models they think need help.

LLC is usually the only one I take, but I don't take the others unless a specific situation calls for it. I'll concede that my post didn't give Trained Ninja the respect it's due, but I would still argue that it can be pretty circumstantial. To circle back to my original point, I that the inclusion of upgrades that boosted generic stats as opposed to offering solutions to specific situations would help elevate weaker models. When it comes to balance, I assume that every model starts off at a baseline. Let's just say for the sake of argument that a standard minion with no flair has stats like: 4SS cost with 4Df/4Wp/4Mv/4Wds. Melee and Ranged @ 4, no triggers. Each thing added to the model adjusts their cost, meaning every boon has an intrinsic value. So if I wanted to give that same model Armor +1 or Melee @ 5, now it's a 5SS model. Bearing in mind that these adjustments aren't applied in a vacuum, couldn't the same formula be applied to generic upgrades?

If I had upgrades as good as any of those, I'd max them out too! I play Ten Thunders and Guild, and none of the upgrades for those factions are anywhere as good as Arcanists'. I'm not saying they don't have their place, but I usually prefer to have 2 SS instead of a mediocre upgrade. This is kind of my point. I rarely find that I chose my upgrades for anything other than VERY specific situations. Arcanists and Bayou, for instance, have upgrades that are good for every game. Free SS, free summon, free focused, etc can be used in all games, and I want something like that for all factions.

That's a very good point. 2E, while enjoyable, was definitely a logistical nightmare in some cases. It also fostered many NPEs, because new players were being asked to keep track of some many things that could vary drastically from one game to the next, even with the same Master. The main reason this conversation came up was because our group seems to rarely use the faction-specific upgrades. It obviously depends on the situation, but most players prefer to just have the 2 SS. We got to talking about workarounds and upgrades people would want to take. One thing left to another, and now here we are. What if certain upgrades couldn't push a model over a certain SS cost? Like, max 10 SS after the upgrade? Something to prevent the monster models from becoming too powerful.

What if there were restrictions on the Upgrades? For instance, you could only have one of anything that gives a straight stat buff, adding an ability could be plentiful (2), and adding a trigger could be plentiful (3).

Adran, I really appreciate your take on this theory! You bring up a lot of good points, and I'm glad to have posed this query for the discussion potential alone. Your opinions are greatly valued! Rook's Slippery definitely makes my proposal for increased range a tricky one. I'm glad you pointed this out. I imagine there will be many cases where a single model throws the balance way out of whack. I actually think that's what happened with Guild; Agent 46 is such a threat that the rest of Guild had to be designed around him. Your point about a good and bad baskets is spot on, and that meta aspect could become a game in and of itself. If I see my opponent field a heavily-invested model, I might prioritize locking it down/taking it out, and my opponent might bank on that.

You make very valid points. Game balance would biggest the biggest challenge, and Wyrd would have to take great measures to ensure generic upgrades don't swing already strong factions/masters into the realm of game-breakingly strong. I especially like your point about the "puzzle solving" aspect of list building. That is easily one of my favorite aspects of any game. Malifaux's design means that I'm constantly considering the game state, so I'm always trying to solves an ever-changing puzzle! Us gamers are an peculiar bunch, amirite? My hope would be that any design changes don't create a situation of auto inclusion, but rather a circumstantial shot in the arm. Fighting Dreamer? Maybe a +1 Wp on a single model is worth 3 SS. Facing down C Hoffman? Throw an extra poison on something to get around armor. Ideally these don't completely counter a list, but provide some additional support to lists that don't have a feasible answer. I think one of the issues I'm seeing with the state of the game is that there are definitely models/masters that get played more than others for various reasons. Maybe giving a single model a targeted boost could make something that's underplayed more viable. Very insightful response, by the way. Thank you!

You lie! 😄

I absolutely agree that different factions will look at some upgrades differently, depending on their strengths/weaknesses. That's actually something I'm counting on. If factions/models don't need it, then it's more than likely they're already in a good place. Conversely, having an option to give a slight boost to other models might see a rise in previously "unplayable" models becoming viable. I think making them open to all factions would mean that players could cherry pick what they needed on a game by game basis. In your example with Corvis Rook, a +1" to melee would be a significant boon, but is it worth adding 1-3 SS to his cost? Maybe, and that's the fun!