Odin1981

In a vacuum yes it is. But that is assuming that said player see's what he/she has at his/hers disposal to use it (or in a lot of personal uses for me remembers something that would effect what I play mei fengs price of progress is really starting to drive me up the wall due to almost never remembering to use said ability). I personally believe a persons experiance with said game system, the knowledge of their crews abilities, and how to counteract what a crew does to yours are the reasons sometimes you see some questions that just want to make you facepalm in disgust (I recently took part in one on the 10T forum about a week or so ago, I feel bad for how I reacted to said person but I just could not believe they had put any thought into learning what their crew which I own as well could do to a crew I also own and have played for close to 3+ years) . Also the mood you are in during a gamestate is pivotal as well because if you get riled up, self defeating, or angry at flips it will effect your outcome of games. Or if anyone would disagree. If you are a vet of miniature games I pose to you the 2 day event game 3 and game 6 question. Sometimes you are exhausted, short on patience, or just plain burned out and those two games can often greatly effect how a person places in a event. Also flat out because of those effects, consumption of spirits the night before (or the day off), and lack of sleep can greatly effect your attention to those games.

I have this odd thought that the first iteration of dreamer was based around the designers getting sick of hearing about the "malifaux child" complaints and thought up dreamer an said ok now let me here the real complaints about punk kids in need of a babysitter .

I think the problem that jonas is saying/talking about is just why would I give up initiative to buff something, when you can use initiative to just kill that which threatens your models. One thing I would be a big proponent of in malifaux 2.0 is init modifiers just flat out being taken away from the game. In my humble opinion the three most important flips in the game are not based on any type of duel they are solely based around turn 2,3,4 init flips. If a pllayer can win 2 of those and assuming their opponent had a similiar skill level I would put money hands down on the side that won two of those flips. Being able to initiate a turn in this game to set the pace of the rest of the turn is absurdly powerful. Also it really grates me only one faction ever gets any effect on those flips. It would be one thing if insidious madness where outcast faction and be able to be hired by any crew but only one faction has models that effect the most important flips of the game (azoraida, doppleganger, insidious madness) and people wonder why a certain faction places so well in national convention tournaments (granted their our a crap ton of other benefits they get but effecting the pace of a turn is something I believe that no faction should have the benefit off).

Its cool man . I was just giving some potential ideas for tradebait for him to get models he needed. I would personally try to trade papa and nino if I was in his/her position. I find nino vastly overated and papa is not bad but what the rest of the ortega's are good at doing (fighting wp and effect related crews are what he sucks at) he suffers do to defending at wp 1 in duels.

Turn 1 dreamer dead + coppelious on 1 wound when mei ended her activation was great for kaeris to immolate to death changed they whole matchup in my opinion. Granted I wish that the flips for that game came up at a later time and date in a tournament but it was nice to see the perfect storm scenario for mei's damage ability. In addition to the end game double negative flip that hit rj+ severe on chumpy for 10 wounds was nice.

I'm not saying he doesn't dgraz, but from what I gather on the forum is some people don't play him right so if that where the case in his instance I could see possibly using him as trade bait for a wastrel.

I'd second that I have played a couple of games at 30ss with duet+ oiran+perf-manne+1 dove and I really like the way it feels.

Thats why I would personally prefer to play sidir with LadyJ.

If you take him (the executioner and abuela) you can companion them all at once from turn 1 on. Your first or early activation (one of the first three activations in the turn) you have abuela activate and you shotgun wedding him (0). He from that point on will be given the family trait and will be able to simultanious activate with them. You would then be able to companion the totem with dita then the executioner in a chain and be able to obey charge a target you have los to for the two obeys to get him up the board. In theory if you had enough masks in hand (7,8 of masks plus a 10 or higher any suit). On to the op's question of what to buy: What I would recomend purchasing with the box set it would include: enslaved nephilim, 1-2 watchers, 1 guild austringer, executioner, and a box set of witchling stalkers. Also if their are a # of guild players in your area see if someone will trade you a wastrel or two for 1-2 models you can give up (definatley I would say papa loco, maybe francisco if you don't like him) so you don't have to buy a boxset that you would really only use out of (of course if you like mccabe by all means purchase the boxset so you can add all the models in it to your disposal).

Wait I thought I was playing against neverborne what is this with needing so many masks? Oh wait I'm playing perdita/family or colette? Lol, I think its rather funny if you ask me. Though I do really like how this suit problem was handled in book 4 by quite a bit. Played a misaki and have run mei quite a bit and love how both lists the other day to get a idea how she runs and was amazed at how the book 4 stuff just seems to not have a overemphasis on one suit (common problem for book2 or 1 crews), I would say the designers just matured over the course of 4 books and saw the problems in having certain type crews hurting over too much competition for one suit.

+1 to what dgraz said that is my core as well for dita. Outside of 5-7 masters I am comfortable playing 4ss cache but I don't play her as a strict frontline shooter. If you come up against someone who has one of the 5-7 I would consider dropping the totem for 6ss for me those masters are: lilith, viks, misaki, pandora, colette, and dreamer with a hm to Leveticus (depends on crew build and if I have played against the opponent before). I started playing her with 2 stalkers but dropped one when watchers came out but really it is just a matter of preferance with what you need after you have locked down 25ss or so of your list in what you feel will round your list out the best.

I think the main thing that people our forgetting in this argument is if you want to run more than two you hire kaeris as a henchmen and the 2 restriction for special forces is removed. And also lets be honest even if you hire her as henchmen she is not a bad investment for the cost (high damage immolates on non i2i models, or low damage board control via gun+accelerant, in addition to being a ss user). Granted I only play 3 masters of the faction (ramos, colette, and mei) but really anytime you want to run more than two just run kaeris for 8ss's. It is less than 25% of your total list at 35ss games and slightly more than 25% at 30ss. Granted at 25ss you probably cannot do this but really who consistantley plays at that level once you have bought more than 1 crew box anyway.

I agree with everything dgraz said. I know most prefer to run guardian with santiago but I would only do that in say a lady j list. I have also for a long time left the two brothers to cover a flank of a battlefield and have never felt they were lacking (santi + fransico). I believe one of the main reasons some people can't make him work is they try to put him up on the frontline and in all honesty that is why they don't get their money's worth with him. He cannot survive hard hitting models or focused master pressure (but in all reality only a handful off minions can survive a ss user attacking them). What he is great at is a support/countercharge model (often off a obey followed by flurry) that kills in those 4 attackis damn near anything that isn't 9+ wounds and armor 2 or better. He is a ever present threat to take out any model that engages santiago in one activation barring masters. And more than likely will take out at least one 7-8 point model if you know when to commit him. I agree with dgraz that in my eyes perdita is in the top tier of guild masters. She has outside of one specific matchup never let me down. The versatility she provides in doing just about any strategy plus her kill power to me is what makes her so good. Even to this day with all the book 4 masters added to existing ones she still has the best defensive stats in the game cast 7, wp 7 with i2i, and the ever present def 8. She might not have alot of wounds but if you place her well on turn 1-2 it should not matter much unless you are drawn against a 20+" melee threat master. One thing also that doesn't get mentioned much on the boards is how she is a great model especially for guild to get objectives with. It really pains me to see everyone talk about her as always quickdraw (0) and shoot all game long. She is easily our most versatile master. I remember in another thread awhile ago I would gladly trade fast for nimble and instinctual for her if their was ever a update for her in a mark 2 malifaux setting. Her fast most often to me is always a walk anyways and to have the ability to use any two of here (0)'s as they all are great would just make me jump for joy (spellbreaker + whatever else every turn yes please , ) . The closest master I could compare her too would be zoraida. In that she just has a whole slew off options to use/do and she has really in my eyes in my humble opinion only like 2 50/50 matchups and 2 40/60 ones. Granted I have yet to take her up against the recent books masters but pre book 4 out of close to 25 masters too only have 4 coinflip or slightly bad matchups is not bad at all.

I would prioritize stalkers over riflemen. Riflemen (2x) are more expensive than nino and have the same effect he does. Granted though they give two activations but with combat 5 you can't guarentee hitting anything that is def 6 or more without a tremendous amount of support from your hand. Also given that the new gaining grounds seems to favour more durable minons for board control/model control riflemen will get destroyed by anything quick and hitty. Which if you play in competitive circles should generally rear its head often in those circles. Masters I couldn't really give out advice on without a explanation on what style of master you like to play/enjoy. I personally am not high on mccabe but he is basically a inverse style of nicodem with debuffs instead of buffs. I don't think he is bad but in the metagame I play in aoe effects/blast heavy and are quite present so I don't think he is very valuble due to getting speed out of minions requires bunching them up. Stalkers are great in that they help with effect removal, have scout and hunter, and are credible melee additions to back up guilds good ranged models also for their point cost I believe they have the best (0) in the game. They are pretty much all purpose but wastrels are better at obj grabbing (if they don't get seen their defense and wp are very suspect to be able to stay alive the entire game). If you are going to be using santana I would suggest picking up Francisco to complement her. They are a great tandem together. I would also suggest picking up 1-2 guild austringers as well.

In reply in regards to your first paragraph: the most important thing unless you are playing hoffman is to not start with a bunched up deployment, kinda like how you would play pre errata dreamer in that you would tops want 2 models within 5" of each other (sword vik bait) and it would probably be better to have a staggered approach to your deployment (front wave models on deployment line, second wave 3" back and such so that they can never hit more than 2 models as you move your battle line up the field). The key thing to do if you can't kill sword vik is to drain there ss's on defense duels rather than to allow them to use ss's offensively on duel totals. Second paragraph: papa might not be bad but it ultimatley comes down to the viks crew composition. If they run hamelin (minion) you better deploy him away from every thing else in your list and any model with friekorps armor won't give two shlitz about him in regards too damage. I personally prefer santiago over nino due to the reliability of running into masks naturally flipped compared to nino card hogging your hand over the particular suit that a family oriented list requires. I often have the most preferred time taking down sword vik by sending executioner supported by a stalker close by to hope they draw the viks ire. They will hopefully take the bait and pounce taking 2 damage when they kill the stalker (and outside of a crappy hand, and a bj for the to hit flip of a charge he will bite the dust) with the executioner will die but will allow you one swing on a sword vik to try to do 4 damage or 3 and a decap trigger. Granted any vik player worth their salt will ss the slow to die flip for it to miss but if they have expended most of their good cards at this point they might not flip a 10+ higher card and could potentially brick (ss card value of a 1-5) their ss attempt to avoid it (not always likely but is possible just don't count on it). However with this line of play assuming no damage prevention flips where made if you connect with the s2d swing you can kill them in their own activation or at worst do 6/7 wounds to sword vik so that any hit past those two kills sword vik outright. Unto your third paragraph: Austringers/nino main role in this fight is to do one of two things kill any low wound model trying to scurry away but most importantly kill student asap. With a combat of 7 if you delay their activation turn two till when a viks player has blew their load (hand) it is not difficult if you keep a 9 or 10 in hand to be able to cheat damage in on student killing it in 1 hunting raptor. From then on you hope to get schill away from the libby so you can start pelting her over two turns with the austringer (again high base combat over a pathetic defense of 2-3 forget which off the top of my head) also their moderate profile isn't bad at all I generally try to save any 6 or 7 in hand for cheated in moderate with them. 3 or 4 with crit strike is a nice hit on most sub 7 point models generally 50% or more of their life. Granted though make no mistake the austringer is no heavy hitter but if you do not activate it till later in a turn when an opponents card in hand resources our down it can reliabley inflict 3-4 damage a strike with just a 8 or better flipped on their attack total. The traps interest me but I do not feel they will affect viks much. Base defense 6 plus use ss I really do not see how they will hit to paralyze a viktoria. i mainly see them as a threat to high cost, high damage, low defense elites that normally seem to come in at defense 4 (1-2 are def 5 but most our def 4 with a couple at def 3). Their is really no reason the trap should hit a vik with the paralyze ability off primed unless they are out of ss's and a depleted hand. I don't think they are bad but I believe their role is not in threatening any ss user outside of potentially one of the casting type low defense masters. You could threaten von schill with them and force ss use to avoid with him so that is another option to bleed them dry out of ss's but generally I would believe with von's mobility he would be able to avoid them. Ronin in the guild matchup suffer from bad walk/charge compared to the range of our guns so they shouldn't often get into are lines but they can be used as a time waster (def 8 ability plus walk) but if they do that it would be better to burn down actual threats instead of a defense 8 hard to kill punching bag. The reason i often focus on/kill the ronin closest to gun vik is to ensure I only have to kill sword vik once. But if they do not keep ronin('s) close to gun vik I generally ignore them till I have dealt with the hitters. One final note is my preferred list to run dita with threw many games of experiance with her is: Dita 4 cache, fransico (5), santiago (7), executioner (7), austringer (5), stalker (4), watcher (3) plus totem (2). Granted I run a low cache but with dita's defense I don't use ss's offensively with her and most of the time in regards to this matchup she will normally go down at some point (generally in turn 3 or 4 unless I kill 2/3 of viks + schill). However the strength of this particular list is that the "power" of this list is dependant on my crew (francisco, santi,exe, and totem combo) to defend against opponents vp, while my "agile" units (dita,watcher,stalker) go get vp.

The big thing I have found with guild against vik's is you have to be willing to sacrifice a good 7+ stone minion to the viks so that you can kill sword vik after she pounces. Also havin a decent amount of long range options (I prefer austringers but on the boards most seem to prefer nino to kill student asap and the closest ronin to gun vik) to take apart the support options of the viks (student, johnny cash, ronin, potentially libby if further than 6" away from hulk hogan. Also if they do take schill it is very important to pull him away from the librarian so that you can burst her down or unless you have quite a bit of companion in your list it is very hard to kill a viktoria due to the heal to full after you attempt to burst one down. I personally feel however a hamelin minion viktoria build is harder to deal with than schill due to him shortening the board 4" plus each models walk. It really puts you on a clock to take him + sword vik down and generally shortens the 36x36" board to a 28x28'' board due to his piper's lure mechanic with the standard vik threat range of 20" makes damn near everything in sword vik kill range after turn 1.

If anything the torakage would be better for movement due to not costing a master's ap use. Also the swap (I believe off the top of my head is 12" but could be just 8" unsure book isn't on me atm) is basically the same range as a railwalk with the only exception of two 50mm base size railwalk.

Why are you complaining about nino when you have smoke bombs that can last till the next activation of a model? How can you not figure out that a ten thunder brother companion of 2 torakage (one bury's to jump out 8" further into the board) into a misaki activation gives you around 20-22" of threat range with diving attack? I would suggest you read your cards and then read them again. Because your master and crew can be taken in a way that would just curb stomp a ortega crew if you actually bothered to see what you could do with them with just a little bit of reading to see how you can deliver stuff into them with no reprisal.

It is good even if you don't. The ability to attack an opponent on more than 2 fronts is great. It is a preverbial 2 for 1. You attack a model (for activation advantage or just cause that specific model is something you don't want to deal with) and you attack the opponents hand (which is wonderful in its own right due to if you can make someone discard 2-4 cards in their hand outside of a god hand it severley hampers the flow of a persons turn when they can't change what they naturally flip).

What or who is Hannah?

I think once players become more familiar with her she will unseat ramos for our combat style strategies. I have played her around 5-6 times so far. I like what she can do. She needs a couple of constructs but doesn't need to run all construct. I have played a couple times with her + rail golem + kaeris, and a few times with Rail + mech rider. Last game was against lynch with rail golem, soulstone miner, mech rider, emberling, oiran, desperate merc. I am waiting for metal gamin to come out to try her with 1-2. I haven't run a msu member list (of the living variety). The only advice I can give so far is if you are playing against high defense ramos is probably still the way to go via indirect damage. I feel she will struggle against lilith, perdita, misaki due to unreliable damage ability. However she does have the potential when she perfect storms to have the highest potential of burst damage due to spending one ap and it turning into 4-5 ap.

I would agree that it would be cool to have a dual specialist type. But I would wager it probably wouldn't be a option that was a family/x type. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a construct/witchunter or death marshal/witchunter type model or even a black sheep/x type model. Only because a ortega + x type model could be very difficult and/or limiting balance wise to have such a model. To me from a family perspective due to companion it can create a sticky situation. Granted I admit wholeheartedly I am no developer or have experiance or insight in upcoming releases future books. But the tightrope that is companion (inheirant to ortega's) could be very difficult or potentially design limiting from that perspective. If said model was dialed in a certain way too hard you give a force multiplier to a existing sub group that can be utilized much greater with other present sub groups. Granted I do not feel companion is op or anything (the twins companion however to me is), due too the distance requirement for activating said model's. Having said that what breaks the twins companion to me is removing the distance requirement for companion. Not being bound to a certain distance of models (2-4 in this particular case) is back breaking in addition to why the hell those models were not given unique. Companion is a strong ability but in my eyes is balanced by having the distance requirement. Also to me personally the thing that makes family "family" in my eyes is companion. Granted from my perspective that is probably why ortegas don't have +1 actions. I don't feel they are bad at all. I feel they have withstood the test of time with newer codex stuff aging. But I feel they can be tricky to add too due to companion from a balance perspective.

I don't know about that I'd ere on the side of wanting a 8-10" charge range plus additional melee expert swing. I personally would only want to make 2 attack swings then 3. The more flips you make the greater chance outside of having a god hand that can force threw hits that you will fluff one hit and then only have 2 swings to connect doing as much damage on them that you would making one charge swing that connected. 7" threat to flurry isn't bad per say but unless the enemy willingly moves a model into that range it won't happen often. And I would argue outside of a cheap expendable type model willingly doing so to take one for the team that won't happen often at all.

But see the thing is I am not talking about gunlines either. I'm talking about a versatile well built crew that has both ranged and melee options. From a list design perspective if you decide to go with either a all melee approach or a ranged dependant approach you accept and understand that if you swing either way you will have weaknesses. But a list that has a 60/40, 50/50, or 40/60 of balanced approach you don't suffer from either of the weaknesses that those all in on one side approach faces. Also the big point I mentioned about a model (in this specific instance the pale rider) of ranged persuasion not having either paired or hunter then yes you get screwed with terrain where as if you have a model with either of those abilities or both you can ignore terrain to a degree and still be able to function in the particular models role without a diminshed effiency at what you do. In regards to your last paragraph Forar that is why the peacekeeper in my eyes is bad/sucks/whatever particular adjective/verb you prefer to use. It requires either a master or another 7+ point model to get somewhere in good shape to get its job done. And in my humble opinion having to spend 1/2 you point allowance (assuming 35ss) or near (somewhere between 45-50%) just to get it to reliable function is pretty damning in my eyes as it is not a "good option". Almost any model in the game barring the malifaux child can operate well when you focus half your points in a list into it. As a side note I recently picked up hoffman but I in no way shape or for even consider using "hoffball" as my approach for him. Ironically the list I will start using him is almost quasi 10 thunders without being a thunder faction model with a toolkit, mech rider, copellious + other fill in options. Given that I will basically be using a 3 faction list as guild. Also in regards to your first paragraph that is why in my eyes the true power of melee models is with +1 melee expert. So you always get a charge + additional swing. Assuming said model has a 3/4/6 range spending a severe on charge plus 3 on swing basically kills every model (minion wise) in the game with the only exception of not killing 10+ wounds with damage mitigation talents.