Math Mathonwy

I loved how they did things in the tail end of M2e where they nerfed the problematic models. I guess it's a toss up between buffing 200 profiles or nerfing 20 but I'd rather take the latter case even though I do realize that people spend time and money on models (as me sometimes about my opinion on Dead Man's Hand...). As for the game, Mah got away, my two Henchmen didn't, and with the area cleared my opponent was able to complete his two Schemes.

Oh, for sure! And I'm all for nerfing both Roosters and SS Miners, as well, as they are absolutely bonkers. And Mah giving your crew 24 AP worth of Concentration Actions is certainly kinda stupid as well (but for Masters it's a bit different).

Sure, Zipp doesn't lack in mobility tricks but there's so many other things to position into (like Scheming, opposing models, avoiding certain opposing model threats, making use of friendly Auras and so on) not to mention the opponent messing with your careful placement. And using Gracie's AP to haul someone to the scene isn't necessarily more efficient unless Gracie really wants to go there anyways. But maybe you are just better at positioning in a way that makes it more efficient to use Mud Toss and I just need more practice - I mean, I most certainly do need more practice with Zipp crews! As for Free Loot - do your opponents drop lots of Scheme Markers against a Zipp crew? Because mine sure don't! I mean, there are probably pools where they need to and some crews which drop Schemes in order to function but both of those are sorta rare. (And it's actually a cool effect because denying Scheme Marker Schemes is a powerful thing, mind you)

I have to say that I'm kinda in the same boat as @wizuriel - the range is so low that you'll usually end up using two AP for it (one to get into position, the second to use the Action) and very rarely are Conditions acute enough to sacrifice two AP into removing one. Not to even mention the card needed - especially since there's the Assist Action which works automatically (though it naturally works only on a select few Conditions and is also otherwise inferior).

WW and Vasilisa summon from Scrap which is also often quite centrally placed (not to mention the extra mobility Vasilisa can give). But in general the whole idea that a Mv5 model (with no special movement restrictions) with a 6" range is somehow ungodly slow is kinda silly to me - it's average and Neverborn in general have quite a nice toolbox for extra maneuverability. As for the second point, Mah is a melee Master and in general is pretty good at removing stuff massive Armor notwithstanding. Offensive Summons, aside from the very high-end stuff like Jorogumo, are usually something I'm happy trying to remove with her if needed. Are you thinking of some specific 6SS Summoned model that would prove as difficult (or more difficult) to remove than a Stitched? I appreciate the quick lesson in how Mah works but I've played two tournaments with her (with no games lost) and numerous friendly games so feel like I have a pretty good handle on her. How many times have you used that advice to one-round a Stitched with Mah, out of interest? Because this kinda seems like theorycraft with infinite Stones available and a hand full of Kings and Queens that have no other use (against a crew with tons of Terrifying stuff, no less)? Df 6 coupled with deck pruning is a very powerful defensive ability in and of itself. I have also used Stitcheds with Collodi and Zoraida (have yet to use Dreamer in M3e) and their durability has always been a complete mystery to me and seemed totally unwarranted. I have to say that I find it a bit sad that a serious suggestion is dismissed out of hand as venting.

It ended in a draw but my opponent had never faced Mah (or Roosters or SS Miners) before.

First of all - huge thanks for doing this in non-magenta text! Much appreciated! Second, good stuff! Lots of good advice. I'll note some stuff I disagree or wish to comment on below and that might make it seem that I'm generally over critical towards the guide - don't take it that way! The guide is excellent and I appreciate the work you've put into it a lot! The criticisms are minor. I'm not at all convinced that Wong has the steepest or even arguably the steepest learning curve in the Bayou. I think that Somer is way more difficult to truly master and think that Wong is more comparable to Brewie. But of course that's very subjective. Thinking that Fzzzzap "always does damage" is actually a bit dangerous, I think. I mean, I thought so originally as well but in practice since Wong is the only one who can utilize enemy Glowy Tokens, them turning into damage requires that Wong keeps hitting them with his Shockwaves and that they eventually fail the test. If you can keep it up, they will eventually fail the test, naturally, but otherwise opponents stacked with Glowy Tokens tend to die from other causes thus "wasting" the potential damage or simply move into such a position that bombing them further is not worth it. Or Wong uses The Glow on them (though that's usually way better than damage so I dunno how much this one caounts). Or Wong dies. So yeah, I think that the thought that Fzzzzap is "always damage" is somewhat dangerous. Finally, you kinda touched on this but just to expand on the Mech Pork - having your models charge into each other and attacking with the positive to the flip makes it easy to miss and Rage is a very convenient way of generating Fast and Glowy. Just be sure to have a suitable low card to cheat with if you flip badly. Btw, I especially liked that you dealt with the trouble of being Sz 1 for Wong touched upon the base size stuff for, e.g., Mech Pork. I often don't see that stuff being mentioned even though it has a massive impact in actual games.

I once again face some Stitched last weekend. My Dreamer opponent had a super elite crew with minimal Lucid Dreams but Stitched still always had a face card to use for GYL. Also, since they are summoned into BtB I really don't understand why people keep talking about their average mobility being a super serious weakness. And the most frustrating part about them is their durability. I had Mah ready to put the beatdown on one but decided against it as it was quite likely that she wouldn't be able to handle one even with her full three AP due to their high Def and Armor. And even if she did, getting three Poison in the process seemed like a bad result especially considering that it was a Summon that had cost the opponent one good card and a single AP and that would be back next turn at full health again if killed. So she went scheming instead and left the Stitched to trivially kill BBB whose defenses are useless against them. I would drop their Df to 5 or even 4 and remove their Armor. They would still be a super formidable damage dealer that Dreamer apparently requires (though having access to plenty of min3 beaters) but they would be far less tanky. Alternatively keep the Armor but have them suffer three wounds when Summoned (this would keep them as a possible hire).

If making a 13" diameter no-go-zone for 6SS doesn't win you games, I'm honestly weirded out by how your games go I mean, if your opponents can just trivially avoid them, maybe you need to work on your placement skills or something.

Damages were higher across the board in M2e - if you are not familiar with it, I wouldn't draw any conclusions based on a random stat. Also, I have to admit that I find it mildly insulting to suggest that people are just railing against M2e versions. Then, you list a ton of models but I would posit that absolutely none of them combine the resilience and damage potential of a Stitched. I mean, I'm massively in favour of nerfing SS Miners but they don't do as much damage so don't really answer my question. Being competent in what one does is fine - a Huckster (or Silurid) is a very mobile Schemer. But Stitched combines durability and damage into one package in a way that I can't think of any other model in the game does at 6SS. You mention Coryphee, Iggy, Ronin, Scion, Rabble Rouser, Kunoichi and Yokai and I don't see any of them really close to Stitched if you look at both of those variables that I pointed out. "Bypass some defenses" is kind of an understatement when they bypass like 90% of the various defenses that the game has being mostly just Armor and HtW that they actually care about. Added to this is the fact that many of the more expensive models have exotic defenses that are all zero utility against a Stitched so they are often at their most dangerous against the most expensive models. They also have massive utility in how they interact with the cards removed from the game. Dreamer players in this very thread have implied that this interaction is core to the design of Dreamer. So 0 utility seems kinda dishonest. As for mobility tricks - when they are summoned they hardly need all that much in the way of mobility, do they? Finally, out of interest, how often do you have Stitched hitting themselves? Is it more or less often than once per game?

Sure, but you said that it was proof. I mean, I could be of the opinion that, I dunno, Spawn Mother having Mv 6 being proof of Stitched are OK but that would be quite non-sensical (to pick an absurdist example). You posited that not being hired OOK and not being spam-hired in keyword means that a model cannot be problematic which is IMO untrue based on previous examples so I challenged your view. That's what we do here, I thought I was using Nicodem as an example of how your proof isn't actually proof. I wasn't comparing the Summoning mechanics between editions. Or are you saying that no Summon can be problematic in M3e no matter the circumstances? As for the OOK thing, I already noted that models in M3e are often very synergistic and even very problematic ones can be fine outside of their specific synergies. Also note that Stitched have been problematic in M1e and M2e as well and they were always problematic only in a select few crews and mostly due to them being Summonable (Collodi and Lucky Effigy notwithstanding) so this is hardly anything new. But aside from that, I must admit that I'm kinda hard-pressed to think of another 6SS model in the game that is as durable, deadly, and synergistic to their crew as the Stitched are.

Why is that proof? Malifaux has a long tradition of models that aren't problematic as hires but are extremely problematic as summons. Heck, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the very first nerf in M1e after release fixed just such a case! A more recent example (that some of you youngsters might remember instead of just us old farts) was Nicodem at the tail end of M2e where the problem was caused by Summoned Kentauroi and Hangeds neither of which was any problem as hires. Further, I would argue that not being hired OOK is not at all valid as proof of non-OPness due to the emphasis on synergies that has been an integral part of M3's design ethos, in general. Once the erratas start hitting, I would be absolutely amazed if they only hit models commonly hired OOK.

Ummm... Rotten Belles were errataed in M2e? And it was good for the game. I still won a tournament spamming them after the nerf so it wasn't as if they were bad afterwards. It was a shame that errataing them took Wyrd so massively long but they eventually did.

I don't think that anyone is denying the importance of player skill - no one suggested that a noob could take Shenlong and win UK nationals with ease. But even though player skill matters, it's still possible (in fact, I would argue, super likely) that the factions are not perfectly balanced. Balancing hundreds of profiles for a very complex game getting a new edition is an insanely tough task. Adjusting for balance will happen.

What is people's opinion on Spawn Mother?

Ah, yeah, I wrote that lazily. Meant that there aren't all that many situations where both players flip and compare yet it isn't an opposed duel. But thank you for the answer! That's how I thought it would go but some other people had their doubts.

Can you cheat against a Red Joker in Initiative Flip? The rules for Red Joker prevent you from cheating against in an opposed duel but Initiative Flip isn't designated as an opposed duel. On the other hand it also isn't a Simple Duel, so it is kinda outside of the normal mechanics.

It seems that both me and my opponents avoid all Scheme Marker Schemes except Power Ritual and Breakthrough as there seems to be so many abilities that deal with enemy Scheme Markers extremely efficiently if they are somewhere other than the very corners of the battlefield, basically. Unless your crew poops Scheme Markers absolutely everywhere while doing other things, it seems that making them is more effort with less payoff than removing them. Which seems very weird. Anyone else noting a similar thing or are we just weird?

Actually, that's an amazing question! I somehow automatically thought the latter but now that I look at it more, I'm actually very unsure. Or rather, kinda sure that it doesn't generate blasts - thank you! Well, I suppose that cuts down on some of the micro juggling so that's a good thing, at least!

I've been using Olivia to hit a Lightning Bug for Fast and Glowy and then that Bug blasts the rest of the crew for Glowy and Fast with his Rams trigger (it's OK if it isn't quite everyone). Then have a Bokor heal the group and use Swine-Cursed to Push Wong up. And then activate Wong last to give everyone Fast for next turn - since stuff isn't quite as clumped at this point he might be forced to use two Shockwave Markers for this but OTOH he can usually hit enemies with them already as well. His 6" Pulse is large enough to still fit in most. ...but that's an amazing amount of busy-works and precise positioning.

I have come to the decision that I'm not a huge fan of Wong's playstyle. Which is a shame as he was one of my favourite Masters in 2nd edition and I still love his theme and the look of his crew. But my problem is all the "playing with themselves" that they have to do. Juggling Glowy Tokens, damaging your own dudes, then healing them back up, hitting all the Triggers, Shieldeds, Pushes, Pulses, card draw - there's a massive amount of stuff that they are doing without any interaction with the opponent. I have always disliked these sorts of mechanics (killing your own dudes for Corpses in 1st edition was such a chore!). And these are quite exact stuff - maintaining LoS and distance for all the Pulses, deciding between cheating the correct suit vs using a Glowy Token, whether you really need that heal when it fails or you flip a weak and so on and so forth. I have always like the "macro" level tactics more than the "micro" and this is kinda the ultimate of "micro". And I tend to get annoyed when I play this sort of stuff non-optimally. But I haven't played him all that much, yet. So I guess my question is: do you find it all a bit much? Do you get used to it? Do you somehow minimize it?

You can't declare Mei if you're Bayou, though. And Mah's Focus Hollering is potent support. I do agree that you kinda need Metal Gamin to take full advantage of Rail Walking, though.

I've a couple of times done a crew of Mah, Lass, Sparks, Mech Pork, 2x SS Miner, 3x Survivor, Bushwhacker It's durable and very difficult to pin down (makes a great use of Scamper and can sometimes use Ride the Rails). Now, granted, it would be easy to make the list better but I wanted to test a very "extreme" build and it worked well all three times I used it. Usually the opponent has a pretty limited amount of models that pose a real threat to all your Armor so taking those out early makes for a pretty laid back game. I think that the amount of Armor is actually the biggest upside as it comes as a surprise to most. Some healing would be golden with the Survivor HtK, though. Their main problem is that Roosters are so bonkers.

At first I thought that the "power level" of models in M3e was lower than in 2e. Damage tracks have been toned down in general, access to extra AP is limited, there's no Paralyze anymore, additional Actions from Triggers can't declare Triggers, Red Joker damage is only Severe +1, Gremlins don't double their damage anymore, and so on. But now that I've played 3e a bit my feeling is that the truly powerful stuff in 3e is actually way more powerful than they ever were in 2e. Many of the profiles are simply upgrades in that if you could have the 3e profile card in a 2e game, you'd choose it in a heartbeat. And then the synergies inside some crews are also on a wholly another level. And the balance seems also to be very random. I think I've had two or three close games of M3e and the rest have been very lopsided. Granted, the VP difference hasn't been that huge but it has been very, very clear who is going to win somewhere during turn two at the latest. Now I realize that things are affect by the fact that people are still getting to grips with the new profiles and the new system and the S&S and so on and M2e certainly had its share of blowouts to say the least but still. There seems to be a lot of "Oh, you have Armor +2 on most of you force - I guess that my sole Analyze Weakness thingy that I own (or even that my Faction provides) is going to be the deciding factor in this game. (Also, they cleaned up the Conditions but then left us with these weird pseudo-conditions like what Analyze Weakness or Poisoned Fate gives you - seem like a very strange design choice). OK, that got a bit rambly. And don't take the musings on balance issues as all that significant as I still have quite little experience with M3e (haven't even seen half of the Masters on the table yet). But I was most interested in how others feel about the power level of M3e when compared to 2e. And I realize that power level in itself is an ambiguous concept but try to cope.

My usual start with Mah is to deploy into a giant bubble and Horrible Holler three times to Pulse three Focus to most of the force. I use SS to make sure this happens if needed. Roosters are obviously the craziest. They are just completely bonkers. Mech Pork has good synergy with them as it can help them turn Frantic. Both benefit massively from Mah's Focus. Pumped full of Focus they are death incarnate and can kill almost anything (except for Yan Lo - I poured about fifty damage into Yan in three turns but that thing is unkillable unless you can ignore Demise abilities). Survivors are quite durable and versatile and can be very good for Schemes which require presence somewhere. Big Brain Brin is amazing. Trixie isn't bad but BBB kinda overshadows her and taking both seems like too much support. Sparks isn't bad but a bit situational. Analyze Weakness is sweet but puts a massive target on his head. SS Miners are absolutely crazy good. Durable, deadly (with the abundance of Focus), and superb Schemers for many situations. Plus, they produce Soul Stones. Bushwhackers aren't bad but don't take too many. I've always been happy with one, though.