Warped Reality: Attaching to Minions.

[WWHSD]

The upgrade Warped Reality has the following text:
"This Upgrade can only be attached to Neverborn Minion or Neverborn Enforcer models in the same crew as Serena Bowman".


I read that as a restriction that prevents any model that is not Neverborn from attaching this upgrade.  There is the additional restriction that the model must be either a Minion or Enforcer and that Serena Bowman must be in the crew. I don't see anything on the card that would seem to allow it to be attached to a model that does not have an available upgrade slot.

Typically cards that can be attached without eating up a slot has wording like "This Upgrade does not count against this model's Upgrade limit". There are also upgrade like Circus Bear that grant a model upgrade slots by instructing you to treat the model as an Enforcer. 

Is there anything about Warped Reality that allows a model without a slot to take it?  

[Haagrum]

Necessary implication, in respect of Minions.

The rules do not normally allow Minions to attach upgrades, but this one states that it may be attached to a particular category of Minions if Serena Bowman is in the same crew. Unless that text is read to have no effect, despite its specificity and having been clearly and deliberately stated on the card, it should override the ordinary rule that Minions may not attach an upgrade. Otherwise, it's assuming that Wyrd put invalid text on a card, even though it's very specific and repeats the "Minion or Enforcer" restriction on the bottom of the card.

It would be handy if the card had been clearer about attaching the upgrade. Unlike Circus Bear, however, this one can be attached to multiple different models in a crew.

For Enforcers, there's no basis to infer that Warped Reality doesn't use up their upgrade slot.

[WWHSD]

8 minutes ago, Tors said:

Common sense.

I don't see how that answers my question. Common Sense would dictate that a model can't exceed it's upgrade limit without an exception being made.

[santaclaws01]

2 hours ago, WWHSD said:

It's not a situation where the upgrade has no effect though. There are clearly models that can legally attach the upgrade. For all we know including Minions in the restrictions on this card is something for future use. I don't think that the Gamin keyword did anything until book 4 and tons of actions have built in suits with no triggers or TNs that require a suit.  

I don't see how there is any difference between an Enforcer at it's upgrade limit (1)  and a Minion at it's upgrade limit (0) when it comes to attaching this upgrade. That's my big issue with attaching this to Minions. Either available upgrade slots matter or they don't. 

They do matter. This upgrade just ignores it for neverborn minion models.

[solkan]

Just now, WWHSD said:

Does it igore them for all Neverborn models or just some? What leads you to the conclusion that the upgrade card creates an exception to the upgrade limit at all?

Please present your argument for why you think the designer wasted your time by saying the upgrade does something it can't do.

[solkan]

57 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

Have they said that all Neverborn Minions are capable of attaching Warped Reality? That’s not the impression I have. 

The card excludes models that aren’t Neverborn and aren’t either Minions or Enforcers from attaching it. It also excludes any models that are part of a crew in which Serena Bowman is not a member. 

 I would assume that once you apply those restrictions that all other rules regarding attaching upgrades during crew building would apply.

What’s the argument for allowing Minions without available upgrade slots to attach this upgrade while at the same time preventing Enforcers without available upgrade slots to do the same?

Dude.  The rule in the rule book:

"Minions may not purchase or attach Upgrades at the beginning of the game (although some odd cases may grant them Upgrades during the game). "

No Minion has upgrade slots, so that rule has to be breaking that rule to do anything at all.  Edit: If you look at the rule book and see a chart with limits, note that the page with the chart refers you back to the status page, where this rule is, for the explanation.  So the chart is a summary of other rules, not its own rule.

The fact that a different group of minions breaks the rule a different way (attaching as if it were an enforcer) doesn't change things.

[Haagrum]

4 hours ago, WWHSD said:

Does it ignore them for all Neverborn models or just some? What leads you to the conclusion that the upgrade card creates an exception to the upgrade limit at all?

As I've said, necessary implication, and the principle that a specific rule may create an exception to a general rule.

The general rule is that Minions can't have upgrades.

The specific rule is that, provided Serena Bowman is in the crew and the Minion is a Neverborn model, it may attach the Warped Reality upgrade.

Unless you proceed on the basis that Wyrd wrote the upgrade to deliberately include impossible text (which would be an excellent meta-gag, given its title), it is necessary to give some meaning to that text. The least-disruptive way to do so is to interpret the wording as meaning that Warped Reality may be attached to a Neverborn Minion if Serena Bowman is also in the crew.

[Haagrum]

3 hours ago, WWHSD said:

The rule I'm looking at in the book is "Models may have a number of Upgrades as determined by their type". It then lists off the limits for each station. Nothing about the restriction text on Warped Reality deals with limits on the numbers of upgrades that can be taken.

If there were two or three different upgrades with the restrictions "Minion and Enforcer" and similar text "This upgrade may only be attached by Neverborn Minion or Neverborn Enforcer models" would a minion be able to equip all such upgrades while an Enforcer would be limited to equipping a single one?

Why does Circus Bear even need to mention being able to attach the upgrade as if the model were an Enforcer if as you claim having the model's name or station in the restriction should be enough to allow it to attach the the upgrade?  

I take your point. However, there's no equivalent Upgrade in the game, so comparisons with other Upgrades are not exactly on point.

The mere fact that Circus Bear uses a different form of words does not necessarily mean that the lack of similar words on Warped Reality makes it impossible to attach to a Minion. In any case, Warped Reality can attach to Minions and Enforcers.

As I've said, it would be nice if Warped Reality did use similar wording to Circus Bear, but that does not necessarily mean that it works differently. This conclusion is all the more reasonable given that it would avoid the result that Warped Reality could not attach to models which it specifically states that it may attach to (assuming the other prerequisites are satisfied).

[Tors]

Common sense.

[WWHSD]

1 hour ago, Haagrum said:

Necessary implication, in respect of Minions.

The rules do not normally allow Minions to attach upgrades, but this one states that it may be attached to a particular category of Minions if Serena Bowman is in the same crew. Unless that text is read to have no effect, despite its specificity and having been clearly and deliberately stated on the card, it should override the ordinary rule that Minions may not attach an upgrade. Otherwise, it's assuming that Wyrd put invalid text on a card, even though it's very specific and repeats the "Minion or Enforcer" restriction on the bottom of the card.

It would be handy if the card had been clearer about attaching the upgrade. Unlike Circus Bear, however, this one can be attached to multiple different models in a crew.

For Enforcers, there's no basis to infer that Warped Reality doesn't use up their upgrade slot.

It's not a situation where the upgrade has no effect though. There are clearly models that can legally attach the upgrade. For all we know including Minions in the restrictions on this card is something for future use. I don't think that the Gamin keyword did anything until book 4 and tons of actions have built in suits with no triggers or TNs that require a suit.  

I don't see how there is any difference between an Enforcer at it's upgrade limit (1)  and a Minion at it's upgrade limit (0) when it comes to attaching this upgrade. That's my big issue with attaching this to Minions. Either available upgrade slots matter or they don't. 

[WWHSD]

38 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

They do matter. This upgrade just ignores it for neverborn minion models.

Does it ignore them for all Neverborn models or just some? What leads you to the conclusion that the upgrade card creates an exception to the upgrade limit at all?

[santaclaws01]

2 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

Does it ignore them for all Neverborn models or just some? What leads you to the conclusion that the upgrade card creates an exception to the upgrade limit at all?

All neverborn minion models yes. Because it says only neverborn minion and Enforcer models can take it, but the only way neverborn minion models would be able to take it is if the upgrade is implicitly allowing them to do so. 

[WWHSD]

6 minutes ago, solkan said:

Please present your argument for why you think the designer wasted your time by saying the upgrade does something it can't do.

Have they said that all Neverborn Minions are capable of attaching Warped Reality? That’s not the impression I have. 

The card excludes models that aren’t Neverborn and aren’t either Minions or Enforcers from attaching it. It also excludes any models that are part of a crew in which Serena Bowman is not a member. 

 I would assume that once you apply those restrictions that all other rules regarding attaching upgrades during crew building would apply.

What’s the argument for allowing Minions without available upgrade slots to attach this upgrade while at the same time preventing Enforcers without available upgrade slots to do the same?

[WWHSD]

4 hours ago, solkan said:

Dude.  The rule in the rule book:

"Minions may not purchase or attach Upgrades at the beginning of the game (although some odd cases may grant them Upgrades during the game). "

No Minion has upgrade slots, so that rule has to be breaking that rule to do anything at all.  Edit: If you look at the rule book and see a chart with limits, note that the page with the chart refers you back to the status page, where this rule is, for the explanation.  So the chart is a summary of other rules, not its own rule.

The fact that a different group of minions breaks the rule a different way (attaching as if it were an enforcer) doesn't change things.

The rule I'm looking at in the book is "Models may have a number of Upgrades as determined by their type". It then lists off the limits for each station. Nothing about the restriction text on Warped Reality deals with limits on the numbers of upgrades that can be taken.

If there were two or three different upgrades with the restrictions "Minion and Enforcer" and similar text "This upgrade may only be attached by Neverborn Minion or Neverborn Enforcer models" would a minion be able to equip all such upgrades while an Enforcer would be limited to equipping a single one?

Why does Circus Bear even need to mention being able to attach the upgrade as if the model were an Enforcer if as you claim having the model's name or station in the restriction should be enough to allow it to attach the the upgrade?