Frame for Murder vs. Obey

[Pikciwok]

From FAQ:
3) If a model is killed by an Ability or Action, which Crew counts as having made the kill? When a model is killed as the result of an Action, the Crew controlling the Action counts as having made the kill. If a model is killed by an Ability, the model with the Ability counts as having made the kill.

From Frame for Murder text (GG2017):

(...)If the chosen 'sucker' model is killed or sacrificed by an enemy model, score 1 VP.(...)

Let's say the Hungering Darkness casted Heed my Voice on Joss and forced him to attack Howard, killing the latter in the process. Howard was the 'sucker'. He was killed by enemy crew, but not an enemy model, so no points from FFM. 

Is that correct? Sounds like spirit vs. letter of law to me.

[Dogmantra]

A model doesn't change sides during Obey (or other similar actions*). It still belongs to whichever crew owns it, it's just that the action it takes is controlled by the other player, so in this case Howard was killed by the enemy crew, but it was a friendly model which killed him, so because he wasn't killed by an enemy model, you would not score points.

In addition, if you were to Obey an enemy model to kill your own sucker, you would score points because despite your own crew making the kill, it was an enemy model which killed your model.

*Heed My Voice and Ama No Zako's one do specify that the target considers the caster friendly for the duration of the action, so that does change a few things but it doesn't swap sides completely, it just treats the caster as if they had swapped sides.

 

I don't think it's really a RAW vs RAI thing either. Thematically, you are setting up a key enemy target to look bad by killing a "poor defenseless" citizen to discredit them and garner sympathy from the people of Malifaux - if your own guy kills one of his teammates, that's not going to make your opponents look bad, that's going to make you look bad.

[solkan]

18 minutes ago, Pikciwok said:

From FAQ:
3) If a model is killed by an Ability or Action, which Crew counts as having made the kill? When a model is killed as the result of an Action, the Crew controlling the Action counts as having made the kill. If a model is killed by an Ability, the model with the Ability counts as having made the kill.

From Frame for Murder text (GG2017):

(...)If the chosen 'sucker' model is killed or sacrificed by an enemy model, score 1 VP.(...)

Let's say the Hungering Darkness casted Heed my Voice on Joss and forced him to attack Howard, killing the latter in the process. Howard was the 'sucker'. He was killed by enemy crew, but not an enemy model, so no points from FFM. 

Is that correct? Sounds like spirit vs. letter of law to me.

From the rulebook (Rules Manual, page 23):

Quote

Friendly and Enemy

Some rules reference friendly or enemy models. From a mechanical standpoint, friendly models are any models that are on the same Crew as the model the rule is affecting. Enemy models are any model that isn’t on the same Crew.

If a rule does not specifically state that it only affects friendly or enemy models (for instance legal targets for an Attack) then it can and does affect any model.

When a model’s Actions are controlled by the opponent (for instance with the Obey Action) the model does not change which models are considered friendly, its friends are still its friends.

This is the part in the rules where it says that Obey and similar actions don't change the loyalty of the model, so when Hungering Darkness casts Heed my Voice on Joss and Joss attacks Howard, that's a friendly model attacking a friendly model.

If you want to get Frame for Murder, you use Obey to make the other crew kill your 'sucker'. 

That's both the spirit and letter of the law, unchanged by the FAQ.

 

[Ludvig]

To me that seems like one of the major points of having obeys. If it was just like normal it would always be better to just have an attack baked in so you didn't need to beat an extra duel with your master just to take a non-master ap. I think it's raw and rai in alignment.