Incorporeal and Armour

[Buzzlybuzzersson]

Ok, so I've just purchased the graveyard spirit to go with kirai, if he gives Armour +2 to an incorporeal model in which order is the damage reduction done?

e.g. onryo suffers 5 damage:

Incorporeal halves it to 3, armour +2 makes it 1 (5÷2-2=1)

Or

Armour+2 makes it 3, incorporeal then halves it to 2 (5-2÷2=2)

 

[Dogmantra]

pg 29 big rulebook has a callout box called "Math" that says you apply modifiers in the order: Multiply, Divide, Add, then Subtract.

So Incorporeal applies before armour/bulletproof etc. It's also worth noting that Damage Prevention happens after determining how much damage you'd take, so it's always the last thing (important for e.g. armour that can't reduce damage to 0 but prevention can).

 

I find the best way to remember it is that AFAIK all damage reduction applies in the order that is most beneficial to the person taking the damage.

[Bengt]

22 hours ago, Ludvig said:

But crit strike being applied first is in direct conflict with the math box since you add before multiplying/subtracting. This does make a difference if you hit crit three times but that's about the only time I think.

Right you are, got a bit confused there.  You don't need to have more than one  for the order to make a difference though. Consider Lady J hitting weak with only her built in suit against an incorporeal target, if you apply crit first you get 2 damage (3+1, reduced to 2), if you apply incorporeal first you get 3 damage (3 reduced to 2, then +1).

An interesting case is a Rail worker made incorporeal by Sandeep. So you then you have the Metal on metal defensive trigger (and as such goes first) that doesn't give armour but straight up reduces the attack by 2 to a minimum of 1, regular Armour +1, and Incorporeal. The more common Grind to a halt trigger gives regular armour so will not change the basic case.

[Buzzlybuzzersson]

Cheers for that

[Ludvig]

Isn't that just the same order all math works? Then soulstones happen after all redution and have different rules. Seems like a straightforward "trick" to remember in my eyes.

[santaclaws01]

38 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Isn't that just the same order all math works? Then soulstones happen after all redution and have different rules. Seems like a straightforward "trick" to remember in my eyes.

Well the trick is that malifaux uses basically the same order of operations that real world math uses. 

[Ludvig]

Just now, santaclaws01 said:

Well the trick is that malifaux uses basically the same order of operations that real world math uses. 

Really neat trick. Imagine the opposite  

[santaclaws01]

34 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Really neat trick. Imagine the opposite  

Pure chaos. Next thing you know Lady Justice would be paling around with undead, Sonnia hanging out with mages and Perdita keeping pet nephilim.

 

Wait a minute...

[Bengt]

Wouldn't this be decided by General Timing, rather than the math box? A player gets to decide the order their own abilities are resolved.

[Ludvig]

1 hour ago, Bengt said:

Wouldn't this be decided by General Timing, rather than the math box? A player gets to decide the order their own abilities are resolved.

I don't think so, reduction is simultaneous and governed by math timing? Why would you need the math timing clarification if general timing covered all the applicable situations? It does seemlike they conflict and I think I usually add crit strikes before halving now that I think about my games.

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

1 hour ago, Bengt said:

Wouldn't this be decided by General Timing, rather than the math box? A player gets to decide the order their own abilities are resolved.

 

By virtue of general rule player chooses in which order abilities on his models resolve, but if the math is involved he has to follow the more specific rule of math order.

[Bengt]

4 hours ago, Ludvig said:

I don't think so, reduction is simultaneous and governed by math timing? Why would you need the math timing clarification if general timing covered all the applicable situations? It does seemlike they conflict and I think I usually add crit strikes before halving now that I think about my games.

I think the only thing that is simultaneous in this game is Faction Declaration (which is explicitly so). The general timing box surely imposes a sequence and I haven't found any rules that exempt some effects from this stated order. Critical strike is a trigger so would go before any abilities with the same timing in any case.

And yeah, I don't think the math box actually change anything currently in the game. Another way to look at it is that they have structured the rest of the game to conform with the math box, making it redundant in practice.

[Ludvig]

But crit strike being applied first is in direct conflict with the math box since you add before multiplying/subtracting. This does make a difference if you hit crit three times but that's about the only time I think.