Somers many styles?

[Dogmantra]

On Gracie it mostly happens automatically. You're going to want to save a 7+ every turn for her to get Reactivate, so she's going to spend a lot of the game with some damage on her, and it's a 50/50 chance that you'll have to cheat a card in for that, so that's 1 wound healed. Then if you have any low garbage cards you can always use her Rile Up action on her second activation just to cheat the duel to heal another 1 damage. Don't throw away decent cards for it, but discarding a 3 of tomes for 1 wound healed is fine. Otherwise just cheat when you feel like you want to kill the enemy, and the healing should mostly come naturally.

Same with Burt to be honest. Those two models are normally some of my key models so they get a lot of attention from my hand, while things like Bayou Gremlins just run schemes or do what they can with whatever they flip.

The main thing to bear in mind is that both Burt & Gracie have Hard to Kill, meaining if they are dropped to 1 wound you can activate them, cheat a duel, even pointlessly, and they will be back to 2 wounds and can survive another hit from almost anything. That's not a bad trade for a single card.

[Dimitri]

So Dogmantra. I tried it as you said! Thanks! Brilliant advice. I could be more offensive as well because my opponent was afraid of gracie's survivability. Really nice trick! I think dirty cheater works great on her. I was avoiding it because she has eat your fill but this is different. She cannot always guarantee the death of a model but she can guarantee to stay there a little more and finally kill! 

[Dimitri]

Hi guys. I will go in a tournament at the end of the month. I have "built" a generic list to stick. Can you please tell me which playstyles, masters or models can counter this list?

-somer (family tree)

-old craky 

-trixie (dirty cheater)

-gracie

-burt (dirty cheater)

-slop hauler

-3x bayou gremlins 

 

Are there any specific strats, schemes or factions or even masters you would pick an other master or crew?

I don't have many models but the other masters i have are wong, mah and ulix.

[crimzzen]

On 1/2/2017 at 1:45 PM, Dimitri said:

Dogmantra can you please give me a couple of tips how to use dirty cheater on gracie and burt? I like the idea of them having it but i never managed to use it properly xD

The Burt one is easy.  Hit HtK, cheat to heal a wound, hit HtK, cheat to heal a wound, hit HtK....  It's pretty cheeky.

[Dimitri]

Is encouragement a good upgrade for "fighter/summoner" somer?

[Sordid Strumpet]

15 minutes ago, Dimitri said:

Is encouragement a good upgrade for "fighter/summoner" somer?

Absolutely. Especially if you combine it with dirty cheater.

[Math Mathonwy]

Or give it to Sammy so Somer can partake as well...

[EpicWaffle]

On 11/1/2017 at 4:24 PM, Math Mathonwy said:

Or give it to Sammy so Somer can partake as well...

I would say to put dirty cheater on him tho if you go that way, because wounds are gonna start to stack up if you abuse it

[crimzzen]

I have a hard time with Sammy.  She's a decent chunk of points without much impact on the game past carrying upgrades (more cost).  Her jynx is cute but short range (and a good way to get her killed, even at df7) so she largely seems relegated to carrying the second limited upgrade (1-2 additional points).  More often than not, IMO, it just seems better to take another business model.  I could take sammy + upgrade or I could take a taxidermist and a stuffed piglet who has an easier time summoning and can bring the pain (and who really doesn't need to survive for any sort of synergy chain).

Sammy's not bad, that's not what I'm saying.  I just don't place a lot of faith in expensive support pieces usually.  What has your guys/gals experiences been?

[codingCaptor]

Sammy is 7 points for 2 more Master AP.    A sammy with Family Tree can do all the summoning while Somer just shoots things to death.   A Sammy with hunting bow can deal damage or shoot pigs in the rear while Ulix summons things, or Vice-versa depending on whether you want to focus on summoning or shooting.    A Sammy with Jug Rocket can help Ophelia Reposition her crew around, freeing Ophelia up to use her 0 on other things (Like killing people harder)   I haven't played brewmaster so I'm not sure if his upgrades would go well with Sammy, but a cast 7 range 12 on Sammy that can free Brewmaster up to do other things seems pretty good.

Of course, Zoraida/Wong's best use is still to add an additional Limited. And Mah tucket just has terrible upgrades, and is a weak leader besides.

While that's her strongest use, I think she also can perform alright solo.   Jynx isn't that short of a range with 8, and it doesn't randomize so she can tag along with a melee crew.  Don't discount the 2 damage either... that's about what I'd call average, especially when dealing with Hard to wound targets.   Being able to shut down a key enemy melee model is also nice.   And summoning Stuffed Piglets off of enemy Scheme markers is great against certain masters and enemy crews.  She's also got additional card draw (assuming you have any kind of card draw already in your crew)

I think she's worth the 7 points if you're running a master who just doesn't have enough AP to get the job done.   Being able to offload AP intensive tasks to Sammy makes her worth the points.   Running her JUST for an additional limited slot, or just to bring Encouragement so that Somer can benefit from it.... That's going to be rough.   She really needs something to do on her turn, and using her as a scheme runner isn't really gonna cut it either.

[Dogmantra]

IME Sammy is always in rage to be effective with her AP, and I would pay 4 or so points just for an activation and Som'er to be able to get Encouragement.

Plus if she hasn't activated, she has a pretty big threat range on her (0), making your opponent potentially afraid to drop any scheme markers, even if she never uses it.

I think something that has been overlooked so far is that she is incredibly card efficient. She rarely requires cards because of her obscene stat line combined with Bayou Two Card, and can also help cycle out a junk card every turn. Sure you could take another Burt or Francois or Raphael but they eat up cards or explode. Roosters less so, but they are still higher priority than Sammy. Sammy doesn't care. Her only weaknesses are a low wound pool and no reckless.

[Math Mathonwy]

14 hours ago, Dogmantra said:

IME Sammy is always in rage to be effective with her AP, and I would pay 4 or so points just for an activation and Som'er to be able to get Encouragement.

Plus if she hasn't activated, she has a pretty big threat range on her (0), making your opponent potentially afraid to drop any scheme markers, even if she never uses it.

I think something that has been overlooked so far is that she is incredibly card efficient. She rarely requires cards because of her obscene stat line combined with Bayou Two Card, and can also help cycle out a junk card every turn. Sure you could take another Burt or Francois or Raphael but they eat up cards or explode. Roosters less so, but they are still higher priority than Sammy. Sammy doesn't care. Her only weaknesses are a low wound pool and no reckless.

I am in absolute agreement with you here! Sammy does quite a few things that you might not notice in that her threat to the enemy Scheme Markers is extremely significant and the strain that she puts on your control hand is a lot less than many other models. It's something that doesn't get nearly the attention that it deserves but loading up on the "best" models might not make the best list if getting the best out of that list needs more resources (cards and SS) than what you can afford. If you fill your force with models that each perform at their best when they consume half your hand, you will likely be disappointed.

Now, naturally there is a flip side to it and Gremlin support options are so awesome that it can be tempting to go too heavy on support. Two Slop Haulers, Sammy, Cranky and Trixie means that if the enemy kills the three or so models who actually do damage in your force, you're a bit out of luck. So balance is needed. But I do think that some of Sammy's worth is done in subtle ways not easily observable in a game or two but more as long-term trends.

Good stuff, Dogmantra, good stuff!

[Dimitri]

I like sammy in somer crew but as you said before it iis tempting to add more supports in gremlin crews and be ineffective... i always use trixie/slop/cranky and thats it 17ss. I like dirty cheater on trixie because i go recless every single turn so 18ss.. i also like full cashe with somer to guarantee either his offense to be on rams or his defence to be on masks or trixie's lure to be on crows. So another 5ss there (2ss for family tree). So half the crew already... who can say no to burt with dirty cheater?.. so 8ss and then you need 3bayou gremlins so 9ss.. this is 10ss left. Most of the times a second beater like gracie.

[crimzzen]

22 hours ago, codingCaptor said:

Sammy is 7 points for 2 more Master AP.    A sammy with Family Tree can do all the summoning while Somer just shoots things to death.   A Sammy with hunting bow can deal damage or shoot pigs in the rear while Ulix summons things, or Vice-versa depending on whether you want to focus on summoning or shooting.    A Sammy with Jug Rocket can help Ophelia Reposition her crew around, freeing Ophelia up to use her 0 on other things (Like killing people harder)   I haven't played brewmaster so I'm not sure if his upgrades would go well with Sammy, but a cast 7 range 12 on Sammy that can free Brewmaster up to do other things seems pretty good.

Of course, Zoraida/Wong's best use is still to add an additional Limited. And Mah tucket just has terrible upgrades, and is a weak leader besides.

While that's her strongest use, I think she also can perform alright solo.   Jynx isn't that short of a range with 8, and it doesn't randomize so she can tag along with a melee crew.  Don't discount the 2 damage either... that's about what I'd call average, especially when dealing with Hard to wound targets.   Being able to shut down a key enemy melee model is also nice.   And summoning Stuffed Piglets off of enemy Scheme markers is great against certain masters and enemy crews.  She's also got additional card draw (assuming you have any kind of card draw already in your crew)

I think she's worth the 7 points if you're running a master who just doesn't have enough AP to get the job done.   Being able to offload AP intensive tasks to Sammy makes her worth the points.   Running her JUST for an additional limited slot, or just to bring Encouragement so that Somer can benefit from it.... That's going to be rough.   She really needs something to do on her turn, and using her as a scheme runner isn't really gonna cut it either.

EDIT: I'm gonna preface this all with the following: These are just my opinions and are driven by my meta,  YMMV.  I've also written this post with the thought of point efficiency in mind.  If you're looking to just play casual then a lot of this doesn't matter.

 

Well I don't think she is 2 more master AP unless you are specifically talking about family tree somer.  But then I need to point out that you're talking about a 9SS investment WHICH is equal to just taking 3 bayou gremlins which is more AP, earlier, as well as everything else that entails.  My somer typically doesn't summon past turn 1.  I make 3 bayous turn 1 and then somer is usually too busy doing other things.  With Sammy, she needs to spend 3 ap to break even (and even more importantly her effect on the game doesn't reach full effectiveness until turn 3, 2 turns behind just hiring 3 bayous to begin with).  Plus she' stuck with a bayou at the deployment zone.  I just don't see value there.  I'd rather just summon with somer turn 1 and have a DC Burt.

Sammy with jug rocket is 8 points to gain a potential move action, which can be useful, but you can achieve the same thing with a young lacroix freeing up 6 points to take a rooster or whatever else in that price range.

Wong's limited are both good, don't get me wrong, but neither of them is 9 points good imo.  99% of the time you're fine just taking Oooh Glowy and then sticking with your randomization.  At Ca7 you're still likely to hit most things you want to and I usually don't care if I randomize off my stuffed piglets into enemies or vice versa.  Sure, the plus flip on the pulse is a nice bonus, but its hardly necessary, and especially not at 9 points.  Again, 9 points buys you a model that will do more damage than a better chance at the extra card (assuming your opponent even gives you blasting opportunities).  9 probably buys you a stronger model and a stuffed piglet giving you activation control in addition to more damage from other sources.

Again, she's not bad and I don't think your crew will suffer in any sort of major way by taking her, but I don't see many gremlin masters that need both limiteds or at least taking both makes them any better.

 

22 hours ago, Dogmantra said:

IME Sammy is always in rage to be effective with her AP, and I would pay 4 or so points just for an activation and Som'er to be able to get Encouragement.

Plus if she hasn't activated, she has a pretty big threat range on her (0), making your opponent potentially afraid to drop any scheme markers, even if she never uses it.

I think something that has been overlooked so far is that she is incredibly card efficient. She rarely requires cards because of her obscene stat line combined with Bayou Two Card, and can also help cycle out a junk card every turn. Sure you could take another Burt or Francois or Raphael but they eat up cards or explode. Roosters less so, but they are still higher priority than Sammy. Sammy doesn't care. Her only weaknesses are a low wound pool and no reckless.

But you're not paying 4 points.  You're paying 8. I would pay 4 points for her if that was what she costed to give out encouragement haha.  But that's not realistic.  She's 7+upgrade regardless of whether you use her other abilities or not.  Some upgrades like family tree preclude her even using her other abilities.  Yup her zero is nice as is jynx (sorta, 2 dmg is actually lower than our average dmg but it gets around some things) but really I could just take a taxidermist who will actually use his 0 WHILE contributing a solid amount of damage.  Yeah she's card light, but I don't use every business model every turn.  I like having business models around so that in later turns I'm not stuck without any way to fight.  One turn it may be frank and burt that get my cards (and at ML 6 they're better than the average).  When they die I have a taxidermist ready to go and contribute instead of sammy who, IMO, doesn't actually contribute much to fights (and really isn't any better with good cards). Reckless is a very key gremlin ability for me TBH.  IT's the reason to play gremlins competitively imo (I've no problem playing any gremlin model in fun games, and I often do play everything).

 

7 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I am in absolute agreement with you here! Sammy does quite a few things that you might not notice in that her threat to the enemy Scheme Markers is extremely significant and the strain that she puts on your control hand is a lot less than many other models. It's something that doesn't get nearly the attention that it deserves but loading up on the "best" models might not make the best list if getting the best out of that list needs more resources (cards and SS) than what you can afford. If you fill your force with models that each perform at their best when they consume half your hand, you will likely be disappointed.

Now, naturally there is a flip side to it and Gremlin support options are so awesome that it can be tempting to go too heavy on support. Two Slop Haulers, Sammy, Cranky and Trixie means that if the enemy kills the three or so models who actually do damage in your force, you're a bit out of luck. So balance is needed. But I do think that some of Sammy's worth is done in subtle ways not easily observable in a game or two but more as long-term trends.

Good stuff, Dogmantra, good stuff!

It's more significant in GG2017 I'll admit but I will also point out that she needs at least an 8 of crows to summon, she has card needs just as much as say the taxidermist does.  Certainly, models do better when they are allocated cards, I agree but I think the rest of the statement is slightly misleading.  Burt fights just fine without cards.  Often times Burt is my second wave beater and will scheme during the early turns 9 (business models scheme usually just fine imo and are able to defend themselves better).  When burt runs into an enemy schemer he's often able to dispatch that model without many resources.  Cards just allow his potential to be greater than a model who doesn't necessarily need cards.  So when my first wave of business is removed, Burt can then switch gears into damage and be able to contribute more than my opponents support who is now trying to compensate.  For the most part, I don't see many support models that double other models efficiency (and are often times the same cost as just taking a second model) and often times the support they provide isn't enough to sway a battle more than just good tactics and positioning (IMO obviously).

 

I agree, and I think we actually agree more than this discussion will show haha.  As far as support goes, gremlins have some of the best.  I ALWAYS take a slop hauler with somer (though they actually fight quite well too haha) but it's rare that I take two or more support models.  Trixie is another I struggle with but I won't get into her now.



I guess my point is;

Really consider the support you are bringing and if it's actually necessary.  More often than not, I think we can get away with less support than we think.  I would be especially weary of support that is situational (like wongs flipping upgrade on sammy) or depends on your opponent playing a certain way.  For the most part, support isn't going to save your beater from a Howard that really wants to get there and if all you're left with after the dust settles is support, your opponent is going to run the board.

[Math Mathonwy]

15 hours ago, crimzzen said:

It's more significant in GG2017 I'll admit but I will also point out that she needs at least an 8 of crows to summon, she has card needs just as much as say the taxidermist does.

She actually doesn't need a card to threaten the transformation and that threat can be a powerful denial tool. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I have Summoned with Sammy since most of the time, if she threatens it, the opponent doesn't even bother laying down the Scheme Markers. Comparing her Summoning to a Taxidermist's is IMO quite wrong as her strength is denial while a Taxidermist actually puts Stuffed Piglets on the board (which contributes in a different way). YMMV (Your meta may vary, that is )

15 hours ago, crimzzen said:

For the most part, support isn't going to save your beater from a Howard that really wants to get there and if all you're left with after the dust settles is support, your opponent is going to run the board.

To be fair, Jynx is one of the rare things that actually might save your beater from a Howard  But yeah, I do know what you mean and agree with the gist of it.

[crimzzen]

7 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

She actually doesn't need a card to threaten the transformation and that threat can be a powerful denial tool. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I have Summoned with Sammy since most of the time, if she threatens it, the opponent doesn't even bother laying down the Scheme Markers. Comparing her Summoning to a Taxidermist's is IMO quite wrong as her strength is denial while a Taxidermist actually puts Stuffed Piglets on the board (which contributes in a different way). YMMV (Your meta may vary, that is )

It's a good point but one that you could really apply to any model (the potential 'threat' of a model that is).

Yeah they do perform different roles, I only selected the taxidermist as the point cost was close and they both have summon opportunities.  You could really insert any business model into the slot at that point range (frank, burt, taxi, rooster).  But you sorta lay out my point in a way; I'd (personal preference heh) prefer an active threat model that my opponent KNOWS will also be summoning with a 9 to a reactive model that may summon IF they have the suit/SS and schemes marker (either relying on your opponent which I don't do OR spending 1 ap).  The taxi generates his marker by doing what he's already doing, damage.  Again, personal preference (YMetaMV) and there are other implications to consider (sammy is range and lockdown but unlikely to kill a model while taxidermist needs to get in there and be exposed).  I certainly don't think either of us is 'wrong.'  The one thing I will give Sammy points for is Bayou Two Card (another faction defining trait that needs to be considered heavily).

 

7 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

To be fair, Jynx is one of the rare things that actually might save your beater from a Howard  But yeah, I do know what you mean and agree with the gist of it.

Haha, sure. Though I will point out that Sammy is Ca6 vs Wp6 and Terrifying  

[SevenThirtySeven]

Lot of good points in this thread.  Quick question - what does Somer NOT like to see?  Is it strat/scheme specific, or are there certain masters or abilities that he doesn't like to tango with? Thanks

[Dimitri]

He favours all strats but the stupid reckoning. Mastres Somer hates is probably viks or lilith? I don't find somer having a problem when i lose but myself not adapting fast enough.

[Dogmantra]

Som'er does everything just fine tbh. He does reckoning well provided you go elite instead of summony.