Sonnia and consuming flame

[Donut Assassin]

I have a question about Sonia's trigger consuming flame. If I kill a model with enough damage does it get the burning +1, before it dies. Cause after damaging, it should.

[Dracomax]

I think the answer is, "People are arguing about that to the extent that thread was closed because it was going in circles."

 

So... Maybe?

[zFiend]

I think the answer is, "People are arguing about that to the extent that thread was closed because it was going in circles."

 

So... Maybe?

 

I'd actually like to know that as well I'd propably play it as no, because it's after damaging and damage kills the model but I can see how that starts going in circles.

[Donut Assassin]

Really.... I'm new to the game and forums, but is there no one that makes official ruling for these kind of questions before they get out of hand. I'm used to playing warmachine hordes, and when a serious question is asked, if a official ruling is not already made, one gets made. My reason for why it would get burning before dieing is that there are already special action and rules that happen before death, such as dropping scheme markers. So normally one is damaged, and if enough damage occurs, then you die. But with her trigger you are damaged, then get burning, if enough damage occurs then you die.

[Donut Assassin]

I'd actually like to know that as well I'd propably play it as no, because it's after damaging and damage kills the model but I can see how that starts going in circles.

Don't special rules take precedence over normal rules, so as I was saying above, damage then burning then death.?

[Dracomax]

There is a faq that is published every two months. They used to do it in the rules forums, but it became a mess, and new players had a ridiculously difficult time trying to figure out what was current rules, what had been answered, and who had authority to answer.

[zFiend]

Don't special rules take precedence over normal rules, so as I was saying above, damage then burning then death.?

 

Well first of, welcome aboard! There are a few questions going around that usually just get closed here.

 

Also I just read your post and you have a good point there. I would also like to have something official on this question. I can see it going either way. 

[Dracomax]

Don't special rules take precedence over normal rules, so as I was saying above, damage then burning then death.?

Only in the specific of the rule. If the rule says that it gives burning to enemies before they are killed, then it would take precedence. However, it is a trigger, and so it follows the trigger timing.

(unlike the witchlings Stalker, which follows ability timing.)

 

The order in which death is resolved is not particularly clear, but the simplest reading seems to say that a model is dead as soon as it gains enough damage to die, but not removed until all aspects of the action that killed it are resolved. Unfortunately, this also means that nobody can seem to agree as to whether it is possible for said model to gain things like burning.

 

it's a mess, and I hope that it gets a thorough answer in May.

 

If you would like, I can point you towards 2-3 threads in which the argument goes ad nauseum to as absurdium. And I think sandwiches were offered by the designers at one point.

[zFiend]

But didn't Justin rule that Collodi could make a (1) ap trigger even though the model had been reduced to zero wounds? Wouldn't that then allow Sonnia to add in burning as well?

[Donut Assassin]

So in a tournament, would every time this would matter, would we have to coin flip or something?

[Dracomax]

That situation is a bit different. It allows Collodi to cause the model to use a (1) AP action. It doesn't apply a condition. What exactly the difference is and if it matters, I can't really say. Like I said, I am so thoroughly ready to just get a better timing explanation that I stopped trying to draw conclusions. The arguments were contradictory at best.

 

For now, I'd honestly play it with a flip off(each flip a card, higher card wins) in friendly games, and as the TO wants in tourneys. There are just too many reasonable arguments both ways to see real agreement short of designer intervention.

[Dracomax]

For reference:

http://wyrd-games.net/community/topic/99040-actions-causing-actions-when-a-model-is-killed/

http://wyrd-games.net/community/topic/99064-killing-a-model-twice-in-one-action/

http://wyrd-games.net/community/topic/98990-sonnias-violation-of-magic/

 

So yeah, contentious.

[zFiend]

That situation is a bit different. It allows Collodi to cause the model to use a (1) AP action. It doesn't apply a condition. What exactly the difference is and if it matters, I can't really say. Like I said, I am so thoroughly ready to just get a better timing explanation that I stopped trying to draw conclusions. The arguments were contradictory at best.

 

That's true. Guess it's just best to wait until we get closed again

[Donut Assassin]

I started the guild cause the plastic minis are awesome looking, and originally I wanted to run perdita. But sonnia really looks like a take all comers type if her crew is set up right. Create LOS blocking terrine, a 3" bubble ca actions with imprinted suit (can't lure Francisco away) she can be 8 defence, she can really start pushing forward and be protected, to create witchlings.

[Dracomax]

Well, I like her. I will say that most of the time, If SOnnia is anywhere near melee, you done screwed up. SHe goes down quick to any kind of melee monster, unless she gets the initiative. I've lost SOnnia Round 2 against Lady J before.

[Donut Assassin]

We'll if didn't place a flame wall in front of my self or a dedicated melee or feed the melee monster with a guild hound or witchlings, then yes, I played stupidly.

[Makrar]

Actually because Consuming Flame is a trigger it WILL resolve before removing the model.(Page 26 small rulebook) so reincarnation is possible.

 

Its Searing Mark from Witchling Stalkers which is a bit wishy washy in applying before the killed model is removed because its an ability. 

[LunarSol]

Actually because Consuming Flame is a trigger it WILL resolve before removing the model.(Page 26 small rulebook) so reincarnation is possible.

 

Its Searing Mark from Witchling Stalkers which is a bit wishy washy in applying before the killed model is removed because its an ability. 

 

How do you apply an ability based on range to a model if that model is already removed when you apply it?

[Donut Assassin]

Thank you for that answer. And for witchlings, the damage is a aura from witchlings from there death = damage from this model = +1 burning.

[Donut Assassin]

What about if a model dies to burning condition, can I make a witchlings? Under burning condition, a model takes the damage. The remove the burning condition. The latter part is not a trigger. So would it be the model dies before the burning condition is removed (since the remove part is not a trigger, death comes before) ?

[Dracomax]

I'm pretty sure we agreed that dieing by burning is capable of making witchlings, but I could look for the thread. I know that it was intended to work that way at one time.

[Dracomax]

We'll if didn't place a flame wall in front of my self or a dedicated melee or feed the melee monster with a guild hound or witchlings, then yes, I played stupidly.

Flamewall ends at the end of the round. Unless you are completely blocked off by other melee models, most crews can, if they win initiative, get in and eviscerate Sonnia. Granted, most can't do it in one activation, and Lady J is a melee beast, but generally speaking—and I am not the only one to experience this—she does best 8-12 inches away from the melee. It is possible to use her well in melee, but she is nowhere near as effective(although the avatar might change that) and she has a very low base Df.

 

Personally, I'd rather use a dog as a base to ping Fireblasts off of than a screen. I can deal more damage that way.

[zFiend]

Flamewall ends at the end of the round.

 

It reads "At the start of this model's next activation or when this model is removed from the table".

[Dracomax]

Huh. I'll have to check that, because it seems I've been playing it wrong.

[zFiend]

Huh. I'll have to check that, because it seems I've been playing it wrong.

 

Typed it straight from the card. It's an amazing ability.