Malifaux Child as Mini Mei (Feng…)

[baskinders]

So I'm thinking this might have snuck through the Beta unnoticed...

Malifaux Child takes the (1) Just Like You action to cast Mei Feng's Railwalker ability. Unlike most "copy" actions, Just Like You doesn't have the proviso of not being able to use triggers. So the little fella can potentially:

- Place himself in contact with a friendly construct or scrap counter within 6"

- Trigger Express Line and do a Jackhammer Kick!!! (which I assume would not get the -3Ca as it's using Ml, nor the positive to the attack flip but would get the negative to damage?!?)

- Trigger one of either Intimidating Pose, Thunderous Smash or Pressurized Vent, depending on upgrades taken, if the Jackhammer kick was successful/did damage!!!!!

Not sure the 3ss totem should be able to carry that out for 1 Ap?

[96p]

it can't as it doesn't have the ability Jackhammerkick

[baskinders]

it can't as it doesn't have the ability Jackhammerkick

Sure I get that he doesn't have it on his card and could not normally declare he was takin the (1) Jackhammer Kick action because of it, but does that stop the trigger which says he may take it from working, hence breaking that rule of it normally having to be printed on his card?

I don't think he should be able to, but the way it plays I would let my opponent do it to me because I don't have a good argument against it?

[CRC]

The argument against it is simple: While the child gained the opportunity to take the action, it cannot take the action, so nothing happens.

In short, yes. Since the child doesn't have (1) Jackhammer Kick on its card, nor have the ability to borrow that action from Mei's card, the trigger doesn't work.

[HalcyonSeraph]

The argument against it is simple: While the child gained the opportunity to take the action, it cannot take the action, so nothing happens.

In short, yes. Since the child doesn't have (1) Jackhammer Kick on its card, nor have the ability to borrow that action from Mei's card, the trigger doesn't work.

The argument FOR it is similarly simple: He copies the entire power, including triggers. The ability to take a Jackhammer Kick attack is included in the Railwalker power. Thus the trigger works.

[Icemyn]

The argument FOR it is similarly simple: He copies the entire power, including triggers. The ability to take a Jackhammer Kick attack is included in the Railwalker power. Thus the trigger works.

That is a real simple argument. I'm not sure how you go from copying an action w/ triggers to then copying a completely different action. I mean why stop at copying a different action? Lets copy all of Mei Fengs other abilities as well.

You do get all of the triggers of the copied action, but if those triggers need another action that wasn't copied, lets say Jackhammer kick for instance, it just doesn't work.

[Hagisman]

All I can think now is modeling the Malifaux Children as mini versions of masters. Akin to Dr Evil and Mini Me.

[HalcyonSeraph]

That is a real simple argument. I'm not sure how you go from copying an action w/ triggers to then copying a completely different action. I mean why stop at copying a different action? Lets copy all of Mei Fengs other abilities as well.

You do get all of the triggers of the copied action, but if those triggers need another action that wasn't copied, lets say Jackhammer kick for instance, it just doesn't work.

You don't "copy all of mei fengs other abilities" because the ability you DO get to copy doesn't reference them.

You're adding a restriction to the power that simply isn't on the card, or in the rules, or anywhere else. To me, it is simple: You get to copy a power, and you get to do everything that power says. You don't get to copy, say, Tiger Claws because that's not in the power you copied. Jackhammer Kick is.

All I can think now is modeling the Malifaux Children as mini versions of masters. Akin to Dr Evil and Mini Me.

That is why they made Puppet Wars.

[tadaka]

Does the main book have any set rules for ability copy actions? I dont think so but I dont have access to it due to lack of availablity.

[Icemyn]

You don't "copy all of mei fengs other abilities" because the ability you DO get to copy doesn't reference them.

You're adding a restriction to the power that simply isn't on the card, or in the rules, or anywhere else. To me, it is simple: You get to copy a power, and you get to do everything that power says. You don't get to copy, say, Tiger Claws because that's not in the power you copied. Jackhammer Kick is.

You can look at this as me adding a restriction sure. Or it could be that you are trying to get more than is allowed.

The onus is not on me to show that you cannot, it is on you to show that you can. An ability being referenced does not equal an ability gained. You have to fundamentally understand that the rules are not capable of describing every thing you are not allowed to do. If it tells you to copy an ability you do that and nothing more.

[tadaka]

I would love to see a ruling for it. I want to try it out. I dont know that it would be super effective but sure would be fun to have malifaux child jackhammer kick a model to death.

[HalcyonSeraph]

I don't think that's true. I'm not "trying to get" anything.

I'm reading a power and only reading what is there. You are reading a power and deciding some other restrictions apply when those appear nowhere in the rules of the game or on the card.

It tells you to copy an ability, including triggers. You are deciding that some triggers fire and some do not.

Stop conflating this with the Child being able to DIRECTLY copy stuff like Jackhammer kick. No one is saying he can do this. He can't. But when an ability he CAN copy has triggers which cause things to happen, those things happen. We don't get to arbitrarily decide which ones do and which ones don't.

[tadaka]

Hal chill man its not that big a heal. This is some thing that cant be argued right or wrong ither way. No one has posted any thing that would be hard preventing this. Hopefully it will simply be added to the next FAQ. I would love to prove he can do it because it would be awsome . It makes sense both ways imho lets just see if they give us some thing in faq.

[HalcyonSeraph]

I dont have the book in front of me - is this the only copy ability in the game that doesn't say "no triggers"? Doppleganger and Hannah being the only other two I can think off the top of my head, and I think they both disallow triggers, right?

[baskinders]

You can look at this as me adding a restriction sure. Or it could be that you are trying to get more than is allowed.

The onus is not on me to show that you cannot, it is on you to show that you can. An ability being referenced does not equal an ability gained. You have to fundamentally understand that the rules are not capable of describing every thing you are not allowed to do. If it tells you to copy an ability you do that and nothing more.

I think the point he's making is in this instance Jackhammer Kick is not a seperate action that you're trying to copy, it is simply part of the Just Like You action. This is consistent with the Actions generating Actions bit of the rules that says an action is not resolved until all generated actions are completed.

So in this case Mini Mei takes Just like You: this generates Railwalker: this generates Jackhammer Kick: this generates whatever trigger/action selected: Just Like You is now resolved. There's no such thing as "copying" actions, but there are actions that generate other actions.

Which kinda makes me wonder if he's a Mini Rasputina and generates a second December's curse, it probably wouldn't get the -3Ca, positive attack and negative damage flips would it? Given it's being generated by The Decembers Curse trigger rather than the Just like You action...

[Wence]

The Malifaux Child's Just Like You doesn't read any differently from any of the Magical Extension abilities on many other totems if I remember correctly (Wendigo & Poltergeist come to mind, and I'm sure there are a couple others). I always assumed they were capable of generating triggers since most other actions are specific when they cannot. I believe it would still suffer a negative flip on the damage because it stipulates something to the effect of "any resulting damage flips" gain a negative flip (I don't have a book with me either), but wouldn't get the positive on the Jackhammer Kick because it is a separate action associated with the trigger.

I can see the need for some clarification though, as it is unclear where you draw the line with the triggers (i.e. does he get to potentially use Intimidating Pose too?), but I would say RAW allows it in my opinion.

[baskinders]

The Malifaux Child's Just Like You doesn't read any differently from any of the Magical Extension abilities on many other totems if I remember correctly (Wendigo & Poltergeist come to mind, and I'm sure there are a couple others). I always assumed they were capable of generating triggers since most other actions are specific when they cannot. I believe it would still suffer a negative flip on the damage because it stipulates something to the effect of "any resulting damage flips" gain a negative flip (I don't have a book with me either), but wouldn't get the positive on the Jackhammer Kick because it is a separate action associated with the trigger.

I can see the need for some clarification though, as it is unclear where you draw the line with the triggers (i.e. does he get to potentially use Intimidating Pose too?), but I would say RAW allows it in my opinion.

Yeah good point, the negative damage flips would definitely apply to all generated actions with that wording. But probably not the -3Ca or positive Attack flips huh? Same with Wendigo's -3Ca on Overpower triggered December's Curses? That doesn't feel right even though it's RAW...

And you're right, magical extension wielding totems can use triggers as well.

[Ausplosions]

This is a ridiculous proposition.

Of course the Child cannot take a Jack hammer kick.

[decker_cky]

This is a ridiculous proposition.

Of course the Child cannot take a Jack hammer kick.

It's also an awesome proposition.

[tadaka]

This is a ridiculous proposition.

Of course the Child cannot take a Jack hammer kick.

LOL after reading this i cant help but feel like some one took a jackhammer kick as a child and now hates them. Just a JOKE

[Ausplosions]

LOL after reading this i cant help but feel like some one took a jackhammer kick as a child and now hates them. Just a JOKE

I'm the One who Kicks.

[hypoking]

My reaction to this thread;

This is both ridiculous and awesome.

I agree with Halcyon.

Oh god, I agree with Halcyon. I need to go take a shower.

Edit: Brewmaster does provide some precedent for an ability allowing a model to use an action not printed on the card or granted by the initial ability.

Edited January 30, 2014 by hypoking

[WildRacoon]

Sadly, I am incline to agree that Just Like You! would receive a Jackhammer Kick because of RAW. In 1.5E I would agree that it would fail because the child doesn't have Jackhammer Kick printed on his card. However in 2E, actions work kinda differently. With that said, I am not so sure that it is even that frightening from the child. He can only do it once per turn, it would likely suffer neg flip to damage. So most of the time, it is going to be doing 2 damage. Then the child is in melee, DF 4 and 4 Wds isn't going to carry him far. Is it worth a 10+ card to cast it and the 3 soulstones it cost to hire him for a 2/3/6 damage at a neg flip?

[tadaka]

To jackhammer kick some one with a malifaux child in a fun game? Hell ya that's worth it

Tell me it would not be priceless to rail walk, jackhammer kick, bad ass pose some one with malifaux child. It would just be epic.

Edited January 30, 2014 by tadaka

[parich]

I feel like there is another strange trigger interaction when used with McMourning's Rancid Transplants CA action. Trigger reads "After succeeding, push McMourning into base contact with the target." So the Child takes the action, hits the trigger, and McMourning pushes into base contact??? Seems strange, but without any of the normal copy restrictions (no triggers, no actions that list a model by name) that's how it would play.

[Ausplosions]

And if it was a McMourning mirror match?