Malifaux and Race

[Demota]

Hey. Just wanted to talk about Malifaux and race for a bit. Let's try to keep things civil here, since I know it's a heated topic in a lot of places.

Is anyone else bothered that the only Asian characters in the game are dressed in elaborate over the top classical Asian outfits, or else they're rail workers? On top of that, the only one who isn't part of the Ten Thunders is Kirai, and I don't think I need to go into why she's a problematic character as far as stereotypes go.

I'm not saying "Wyrd is racist and discriminatory." I mean, they do a fantastic job with representing women in general, even if the models usually end up on the cheesecakey side. I also greatly appreciate that the Ten Thunders isn't just "The Asian faction", since they include McCabe and Lynch. I just feel that there's room for characters of more ethnicities that aren't dressed up in the Hollywood trappings of their countries of origin.

A sniper from India. A Japanese poker mage. A native American construct maker. An African super spy. I could go on and on.

Also, I'm a little bothered by a miniature literally being named Injun Joss.

[rsteelrose]

You do realize that this is set in an Alt-Victorian Era, and all of these stereotypes are part of that era?

[Fenton Crack]

I think the reasons one may get a reading of an over the top rendering of the asian population, and other races in Malifaux, may be many. First of all, is the setting of the turn of the century. If the breach is located in North America, which I often assume, although I am not sure it has been backed up anywhere, society was still very exclusionary and non-Caucasians were marginalized, and did not mix or move up easily in society. If this is the primary population that travels through the breach to Malifaux, it would follow that their ideas and prejudices would follow.

Additionally, Malifaux seems to be going for a "pulp" feel, which traditionally over emphasizes differences to make places and people more exotic. I realize one can simply point out that the pulp genre came about in less enlightened times and to follow the earlier conventions is certainly a choice, and may be not a sensitive to the game's modern audience, so is less sensitive than dome would have it.

However, there have been some breaks with traditional stereotypes that Wyrd seems to be showing a conscious effort to avoid. Markus, while black, is a former college professor, a statistical anomaly for the time period. Myranda, is right hand woman is Caucasian in appearance, showing racially diverse characters made to work together. The Ortegas, apparently Latino, are held in high regard by the guild, and while their boxed crew may have no racial diversity, it's to be expected since they are all family. The rail workers apparently have one member that is black instead of all asian.

I'm not saying that the same issues don't exist here as in a lot of period fiction, but as to the intent of the creators, I see no ill will regarding their treatment of race, and based on feedback I've read and heard thus far, they seem more likely to take flack for representations of female characters (some find them empowering, some find them over sexualized) more than those of other races.

At the end of the day nobody can tell someone they are not allowed to be concerned or offended, regardless of the actual intention of the creators.

[Doc Aquatic]

You do realize that this is set in an Alt-Victorian Era, and all of these stereotypes are part of that era?

That's true, but it's also being produced in the modern era, and Malifaux broadly bucks stereotypes with things like what Fenton Crack mentioned. I feel like this is just kind of a lazy dismissal, considering the rest of the body of the work doesn't embrace Victorian stereotypes.

That said, Malifaux's been a lot better for representation of people of color than a lot of other wargames, and I hope that in the future, we see more examples of characters who go against stereotypes.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Doc Aquatic

[zFiend]

Just.. Why? I mean, why play the race card?

[dgraz]

Just.. Why? I mean, why play the race card?

As others have mentioned......

1) It's a time period and place where certain things were common

2) It's pulp and certain things are exaggerated

3) They've done quite a bit to buck the time period and actually maintain some Political Correctness when they didn't really need to

4) Political Correctness has very little place where 1 through 3 are as they are.

[MEP]

You have to remember that at this time in history (in the real world) Asian immigrants were building little China towns in every major metropolitan area where they settled. The decision to cling to their traditions, fashions, language, etc. were made consciously by a people who were trying to maintain a sense of their own heritage in a world that was completely foreign to them (and the differences between Eastern and Western culture were pretty dramatic, still are). It's not just that the locals excluded them or stereotyped them (which did happen), but that the immigrants consciously chose to express a distinct identity, oftentimes the immigrants themselves exaggerated their own cultural characteristics as a response to the pressures of local cultures that were sometimes hostile toward them (sort of like how today more Mexican immigrants in the US celebrate Cinco de Mayo than actual Mexicans in Mexico do (and no, it is NOT Mexican independence day, that's Sep 16 which isn't mentioned in the US at all)).

I think the representation of the Asian characters in Malifaux is actually pretty well done (with the possible exception of Fuhatsu, but that's a different set of potential problems really). The dress is no more exaggerated than the pseudo-victorian or more-Western-than-the-real-West excesses that the white characters all succumb to, and represents a thematic trend that runs throughout the setting, not just the Asian characters. Every character is exaggerated in one way or another.

If there is any stereotype that runs throughout the Asian characters in Malifaux, it's a positive one. Every Asian character (again, with the exception of Fuhatsu, a troublesome character in many respects) is a highly skilled expert, even the non-master characters. The stereotypes drawn from are the ones of incredible martial mastery, self-discipline and just generally being badass. They're all overachievers. They're all loyal. None of them are slackers or rogues in any way. They're all united as a group. They have their internal struggles, but ultimately they work together because they are drawn together by ties that are stronger than individual desires (a very Asian theme, one which many actual Asians would consider a positive one).

I can find some problems with the way some characters are represented in Malifaux (sometimes the representations of women are awesome, sometimes totally not; as someone who has known a lot of kids and adults with mental disabilities Fuhatsu bothers me; why are there so few Native Americans? Where are the Africans? I know there are a few of each, but I would expect more). But I think the way they've handled Asian culture and characters is actually one of their strong points.

[Demota]

You do realize that this is set in an Alt-Victorian Era, and all of these stereotypes are part of that era?

I do realize this, yes. I'm not saying they shouldn't include those stererotypical models. I think they're actually pretty cool, and I say this as a Taiwanese-American! I'm just saying that those models should not be the only representative of their race. If anything, I feel that setting the game as an alternate history setting should result in more diversity, not less.

Just.. Why? I mean, why play the race card?

I'm not sure what you mean here. I'm not accusing anyone of being racist. So long as the discussion doesn't get hostile, I don't see the harm in talking about it. I'm very appreciative of the lengths that Wyrd has gone through to make the game more inclusive. I just feel it could be taken a little further, is all.

[Helm]

Is anyone else bothered that the only Asian characters in the game are dressed in elaborate over the top classical Asian outfits, or else they're rail workers? On top of that, the only one who isn't part of the Ten Thunders is Kirai, and I don't think I need to go into why she's a problematic character as far as stereotypes go.

I refer you to FUHATSU, GREATEST HERO OF THE TEN THUNDERS.

Honestly, I'm thinking of going TT just for the sake of that guy.

On a more serious note:

I'd argue that Wyrd has done a pretty careful and thorough job when it comes to racial representation. They've always made it clear that the game is all about mashing together strong themes and stereotypes. We have the fat rich white overlords coupled with powerful personal wizardry, the inherent cuteness of a teddy bear coupled with monstrous strength and a hideous appearance, and the Old West coupled with Asian themes. This isn't actually a new thing at all; there was a lot of back-and-forth between Westerns and the films of the likes of Kurosawa. Seven Samurai got remade in Western form as the Magnificent Seven, with the blessings of the original creator. The last book I read on kendo featured a Japanese swordsman and teacher who had taken part in real duels, and he pointed out some of the parallels between ancient Japan and the Old West.

However, Malifaux is a bad place filled with bad people. We have incredibly callous, unhinged and corruptible individuals in this game, and there are white male creators steering the fluff.

Without making any judgement on the ethics of the situation, I'd suggest that one reason for the Asian themes to be so separately Asian is to keep them away from more negative stereotypes. On the white male side of things, we have Seamus, Nicodem and McMourning, who are obviously monsters. Lucius is clearly far from being a good guy. Ramos is simply a manipulative political who wants more than his already-considerable power. The bureaucracy of the Guild is pretty hideous.

On the TT side of things, however, Misaki is struggling to act with honour despite crushing family responsibility, and is coming into her own power. Yan Lo is a respected elder who works using Ancestors more than simply undead slaves. Mei Feng is portrayed sympathetically.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you won't find many hateful characters who aren't in the creators' (and let's face it, the majority of the players') own social group. While I can't speak for the fluffwriters, I'd say that these kinds of decisions have been reasonably conscious.

---------- Post added at 06:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:44 PM ----------

Sorry MEP for ajy offense due to fuhatsu allcaps, was typing as you posted. An on puone on train now so cannot post properly, but believe that Fuhatsu is a positive character overall.

[RagingRodian]

Please, don't make Malifaux politically correct and don't sanitize history. Political correctness is just another way of spreading ignorance and intolerance. Demanding that people that would traditionally be referred to as "Orientals" (which should, in this time period, be the default term for most Ten Thunders) as "Asian" is itself an excellent example of this. There is no way to win with political correctness.

[i_was_like_you]

Regarding the abundance of Three Kingdoms Asians (done for simplicity sake, but probably contains its own problems): Do keep in mind, not only the Chinatown effect, but that many of the Ten Thunders members have just arrived in Malifaux a short time ago, while many more are still arriving.

When it comes to other races, we have Marcus, the seemingly only black guy in the whole land, despite the art for Convict Gunslinger (1st edition), McTavish and one of the Union Miners appearing to also be black. I've painted my McTavish to retain his color, and I've also done so with the original Convict Gunslinger sculpt. When the Union Miner made it from sketch to sculpt, however, his features had changed, no longer lending him to this racial minority.

With Earthside criminals being sent Breachside, as well as anyone else down on their luck looking to make a buck, I'm still left wondering at why we don't see more people of color. The Civil War has just ended. The slaves have been freed. The choice to strike out on their own to fulfill their own potential is there, as is the very likelihood that Earthside courts, at least in highly racist areas, would sentence an inordinate amount of black people to serve out their sentences Breachside.

Let's take a look at Hell on Wheels for another fictional account of this era. Railworkers from the Pacific side of the rails tended to be Chinese immigrants. Whereas workers from the Eastcoast were Black, Irish, Italian, etc. Any ethnic group that had arrived to our fair shores later than others and thus were seen as second class.

Speaking of our fair shores, the Native Americans, or, at this stage Injuns, are still only represented by Joss, who, in his new 2.0 incarnation does not even resemble one. I don't know what the in-game reason for their lack of numbers Breachside might be. I do like our fan-theory that they were too smart to go Breachside, knowing full well the horrors of the Neverborn and thus they remain Earthside as Wild West Exodus' Warrior Nation.

It is possible that many of the Native Americans who have made the trip to Malifaux have found employ in the ranks of the Freikorps, and that is why we haven't seen them.

[HalcyonSeraph]

Someone lock this thread before it gets any more embarassing than it already is.

[Demota]

Maybe I need to be a little clearer. There are a lot of alarmist posts being made. I'm not accusing Wyrd of racism. I'm just asking for more minority representation. That's it. I'm not even asking them to tone down the over the top Asian-ness of the Ten Thunders models, because I think those are actually pretty cool. I just wish that weren't the entirety of how Asians are represented.

[zFiend]

Someone lock this thread before it gets any more embarassing than it already is.

[rsteelrose]

I just wish that weren't the entirety of how Asians are represented.

How would you do this?

[Demota]

How would you do this?

Pretty simple. Just make the next master a person of color without dressing them up in ethnic garb or giving them an ethnic weapon or having them cast ethnic spells or anything like that. It's really not that hard.

I mean, just look at May in Agents of SHIELD. She's Asian. They don't make a big deal about it. Nobody points it out. She's treated as an equal. Sure, she busts out the martial arts, but so do half of the other characters.

Again, I'm not asking for a stop to the crazy classical Chinese wear, martial arts, that kind of thing. I think that stuff looks pretty cool, and it's very in-genre. I'd be sad if it were removed. I just want other stuff too. I don't get what's so offensively PC about that.

[dgraz]

I mean, just look at May in Agents of SHIELD. She's Asian. They don't make a big deal about it. Nobody points it out. She's treated as an equal. Sure, she busts out the martial arts, but so do half of the other characters.

Sure, put today's hang-ups on a period piece.

I want a re-make of The Seven Samurai.....I mean, why do they all dress and act like that? It's so stereo-typical.

While we're at it, a re-make of Tombstone where the Earps are Asian and Doc Holiday is a Purple-People-Eater.

[Matney X]

... But there's only one Native American, and only one person from the Middle East.

[MEP]

Sorry MEP for ajy offense due to fuhatsu allcaps, was typing as you posted. An on puone on train now so cannot post properly, but believe that Fuhatsu is a positive character overall.

No offense taken. I try to be aware of various sensitivities, but I'm not personally offended by anything (nothing in this life is so serious that any words are worth losing your **** over). I just find that being aware of those sensitivities tends to point the way toward being a more sympathetic individual. Empathy is valuable, but taking offense is really an expression of vanity more so than compassion.

I'm kind of on the fence about Fuhatsu personally. I think he could be a positive character but that he is designed (seemingly at least) to be primarily humorous. I knew a guy who was kicked in the head by a horse and ended up pretty much exactly the way Fuhatsu is described. Loss of higher level cognitive abilities, lack of emotional control, various health issues. He was a great guy (mostly, he had a very adolescent-like short fuse, but it's hard to tell if that was part of his personality before or after his accident. I didn't meet him before), and I suspect he would of liked a character like Fuhatsu, even gotten a laugh out of him. But there's a fine line between humorous homage and outright mockery (and it's impossible for me to speculate on author intent so I tend to grant the benefit of the doubt). It's not always a clearly defined line either, it moves from person to person. I'm still personally trying to decide if Fuhatsu will part of my TT crew (just got the Misaki box in the mail two days ago). I have to think about it.

All in all though, I think Malifaux does a better job of representing different characters than most games in this hobby. I think that's why you see these discussions pop up here and not on many other games' forums. This game has done a good job of attracting the attention of people who care about these kinds of issues, and even if they don't always hit the target they're aiming for, the mere fact that they aim for it and that it inspires this kind of discussion among its fans is notable.

[i_was_like_you]

Regarding Fuhatsu, and other physical and cognitive impairments, I think we're starting to see them as more prominent in Malifaux than the non-Asian minority groups.

We have Ryle, Lenny, and Fuhatsu in the cognitive department. Hoffman's polio-wracked body. Nicodem, new Joss, Railworkers, and the various other amputees...Bad things happen, indeed.

[Setoth]

... But there's only one Native American, and only one person from the Middle East.

Which character is from the Middle East? The only one I can think of that comes close is Sidir Alchibal, but that's the Punjab region. Or am I missing someone else?

[Matney X]

Nah, you've got it. I'm just an ignorant American, and didn't think to fact check, first.

I blame Disney.. any time I see turbans, I think Aladdin and Arabian niiiiiiights...

Edited October 3, 2013 by Matney X

[i_was_like_you]

Nah, you've got it. I'm just an ignorant American, and didn't think to fact check, first.

I blame Disney.. any time I see turbans, I think Aladdin and Arabian niiiiiiights...

Right. Still in the Middle to Far East. Doesn't quite count as either, though.

[Matney X]

In any case, that incredibly-large-yet-hard-to-define area is only represented by one model.

[Parker Barrows]

The OP wasn't asking for Malifaux to adopt a new standard where all characters must be divided equally among racial lines while ignoring the setting and era Malifaux is set in. He asked if we could a Westernized Asian character or two. I'm not sure why that is a bad thing. Or if it isn't, why it is "political correctness?"

People have the right to ask for certain kinds of characters without being accused of having some agenda like "political correctness."