2 Very Different Misaki Crews

[AgentRock]

I did some quick musing about an aggressive versus a passive build for the Mistress of the Ten Thunders. Comments welcome.

[Seismic134]

Quite a good write up. Although she can be made quite defensive I find it hard to realise why. I've played misaki all the way from the start of the beta (decided to start a new master for a new edition). I've never found a decent situation where she has had to been made primarily defensive. Yes she may need to be defensive at certain times but I find retreating her back and using Shang's heal to get her back up.

I'll still give defensive a try and see what I think

[TarlSS]

Cool writeup. What's your opinion on Torakage and the best way to use them? I think they have really cool ablities with smoke and shadow, but I'm just not sure what sort of tricks and uses they're really capable of.

[osoi]

You see I definately play her and her crew as defensive and control, she still kills things well enough without being hyper aggresive. You do want another beater in her crew though when going down that route.

[chris_havoc]

I've used the following list to great effect:

Misaki (Disguise, Misdirection, Untouchable), Yamaziko, Drake, 2xOiran, 3xMonk of the Low River, Shang (though would probably get rid of him for upgrades on Yamaziko).

The Oiran and Misaki can't be charged so that is awesome. Yamaziko makes charging anyone else fruitless so for holding points these guys are rad and the monks and Drake heal really well.

[AgentRock]

Cool writeup. What's your opinion on Torakage and the best way to use them? I think they have really cool ablities with smoke and shadow, but I'm just not sure what sort of tricks and uses they're really capable of.

I like the suggestion that Mike Marshall put up in the most recent Malifools, that the Torekage's bury on the first turn, Misaki and Yamaziko advance well up the board, then the Torekages can unbury off of them. This is brutal for when the Distract scheme comes up in the pool, as they can unbury in melee with a bunch of other models which can then be distracted at the beginning of next turn. Otherwise, they can either help kill stuff, or move and go drop scheme markers. They're fast, have pretty good defenses. Pretty decent all-rounders.

---------- Post added at 08:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:16 AM ----------

Quite a good write up. Although she can be made quite defensive I find it hard to realise why. I've played misaki all the way from the start of the beta (decided to start a new master for a new edition). I've never found a decent situation where she has had to been made primarily defensive. Yes she may need to be defensive at certain times but I find retreating her back and using Shang's heal to get her back up.

I'll still give defensive a try and see what I think

I mostly write about it to point out the possibility. I have more experience with the aggressive Stalking Bisento build, but I love the fact that both are options available to her and want to get more experience with the more defensive build. Also, it's not like you're trading away all of her attack power. She still hits just as hard, just loses stalk. Hell, once you're in close you can move in, hit the enemy models, then use the auto-trigger to push back out to "I have engaged you but you can't attack me" range.

[Da Git]

Nice write up Awol, I was wondering about some of the finer points of Misaki & I think you might be on to something here...

I've been running her as the choppy killer that she can be but still using her in a fairly defensive way stalking her target sometime in the first turn & then hiding until she can strike. hopfully kill her target on the charge (+ the zero if need be, if not stalk something else), then next target & walk outta there.

However, I'm really liking the look of disguised comboing with Deadly Dance, basically invulnerable to melee other than summoning & pushes! I'd probably still go with Recalled training for the +'s (the main reason I like Stalking people!), not sure on the last one, I don't really like untouchable as I'd already be using (1) for deadly dance, I don't also want to (1+) Defensive stance...

Could people post up your experiences with multiple Torakage & Monks. While I like Torakage, just one has been great for completing schemes & occasionally killing things in combat, but I hate weak 1dmg models for that... The Monks I just don't get?? Need to stop being so aggressive!

[chris_havoc]

@Da O&F Git: I was very skeptical about the monks when I read them in the initial Beta but then I tried them out and they are awesome. Very much control pieces. They only have 5 wounds but with Stand Ground, Brutal Sensei, Calls Unto the Chi, and a decent defensive profile they are very resilient. On top of that if you have a group of them you can increase their resilience by throwing around defensive stance. They move fairly quickly at wk 5 and pose no immediate threat to your opponent so are not often immediately targeted. But when they get onto an objective they will almost certainly hold it. They also remove conditions which means they also function well as a support piece. I've not used them with Torakage but Yamaziko works really well with them as she keeps up with them and offers further defense with Brace Yari and some offense with her decent damage profile. She's also complimented well by the fact that the monks dish out defensive stance on her low df of 4. Personally I would rather use the drake and yamaziko than torakage but with the torakage's ability to grab objectives while the monks are good at holding them does make for a good-sounding combo.

@ OP: Even without her Stalking Bisento Misaki is a beast in combat and with the disguise build very resilient. With Next Target being a natural Trigger Deadly Dance is very effective even on the offensive because she can so easily get back into a position where she is basically untouchable by melee. With Misdirection it is also relatively safe to stay in combat if you find yourself needing it. Without Stalking Bisento Thuner also becomes a more attractive option as you can charge her into groups and potentially do blasts and then push her right back out again. Just beware of those models with a 3" melee range. She is also tougher against shooting but can't take it forever. So it is sometimes a good idea to stay in melee with close combat guys initially and use stones for misdirection and then charge the heavy shooters and get deadly dance.

[AgentRock]

Nice write up Awol, I was wondering about some of the finer points of Misaki & I think you might be on to something here...

I've been running her as the choppy killer that she can be but still using her in a fairly defensive way stalking her target sometime in the first turn & then hiding until she can strike. hopfully kill her target on the charge (+ the zero if need be, if not stalk something else), then next target & walk outta there.

However, I'm really liking the look of disguised comboing with Deadly Dance, basically invulnerable to melee other than summoning & pushes! I'd probably still go with Recalled training for the +'s (the main reason I like Stalking people!), not sure on the last one, I don't really like untouchable as I'd already be using (1) for deadly dance, I don't also want to (1+) Defensive stance...

Could people post up your experiences with multiple Torakage & Monks. While I like Torakage, just one has been great for completing schemes & occasionally killing things in combat, but I hate weak 1dmg models for that... The Monks I just don't get?? Need to stop being so aggressive!

You may be right. I went back and forth on that while I was writing the post and ultimately just elected to go as far in the defensive direction as I could to illustrate the diversity the master can bring to the table. + flips for a whole turn on defense would be pretty ridiculous as well and a lot more versatile, so I have a feeling I'll probably go that way when I try it out.

---------- Post added at 07:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:41 AM ----------

The 2 weaknesses to the defense build that I see are (1) ranged attacks, which she is resilient to and can sprint up into melee to counter, and (2) models like the Hungering Darkness or Teddy that she can't do the "I hit you you no hit me" dance against. Of the two, ranged attacks in the form of casters seem like the biggest issue. Sonnia or Rasputina could be a real problem if you don't get them engaged and locked down immediately, I'm thinking, and at first blush I don't see a good counter to them in the TT faction. Maybe Torekage's and/or Oiran throwing smoke, but that's kind of it. Thoughts?

[AgentRock]

@chris_havoc I might just be dense, but I don't see how Monk of Low River spreads defensive stance to other models. Is it their Rapid Waters Timeless Voice ability? Because I read that as the Monk doing the disengaging strike gets the defensive +1 when succeeding.

[chris_havoc]

Sorry you are correct sir! But to be honest I've only ever used it once to that effect anyway. I almost always just take the defensive stance action and people tend not to disengage from a model that won't do any damage. Even with me misreading the wording like a n00b. I now see that it is better than I thought actually. Thought it was odd you could give enemies defensive stance. Usually I just use them to drop markers or go into defensive stance. It sounds like a waste of points but like I said they pose no direct threat and you have to commit a lot of resources to killing them.

I can think of an answer to 3" melee ranges in that the Next Target trigger pushes you 4" away. So it's not as hard a counter as Deadly Dance but it does mean only one melee attack coming your way rather than two. Also I think the fact that you can go into defensive stand without a card is also a way to counter these guys.

Spell casters are definitely a tougher thing to face. But Misaki's df and wp are quite high. Also if the spells target df then Misdirection is very useful. If not then maybe the Drake is a good way to counter these types of guys? Counterspell and decent stats and big base and decent movement means Misaki can take cover behind it?

EDIT:

Monks are also immune to burning so maybe they are a good choice against Sonnia too.

Edited September 30, 2013 by chris_havoc

[AgentRock]

Sure you can push away with Next Target, but it eliminates the reason you're doing the dance, IE to lock things in melee when they can't hit you back. That's when the Untouchable would come in handy, I suppose.

Maybe on the Drake, but it feels like you'd be handcuffing her by making her slow down to its speed. I still think the best thing would be to use cover to get within diving charge range and then lock her down for the game.

[TarlSS]

Wouldn't Mei Feng be the counter to casters? Her vent steam gives a neg to CA as well.

She's pretty much the anti-rasputina. Her teleport is very effective because ice gamin/golems are constructs. Not to mention Kang..

Against Sonia it's probably not so easy. She has a low DEF, so maybe you could shoot her to death with TT archers. Since they can shoot without LOS, you can force engagements on your terms.

And you can still use the torkage/oiran smoke bombs to cover your approach.

[AgentRock]

I've resisted buying Mei in the past because I don't think she's that different from what Misaki brings, though I may pick her boxset up just for Kang. Plus I'm now going to have to build an Arcanist crew for demos, so that'd take card of two things.

[EnternalVoid]

Wouldn't Mei Feng be the counter to casters? Her vent steam gives a neg to CA as well.

She's pretty much the anti-rasputina. Her teleport is very effective because ice gamin/golems are constructs. Not to mention Kang..

Against Sonia it's probably not so easy. She has a low DEF, so maybe you could shoot her to death with TT archers. Since they can shoot without LOS, you can force engagements on your terms.

And you can still use the torkage/oiran smoke bombs to cover your approach.

Also remember that Sonnia gets a positive to hit against models with Wp6+, so it will get around the Vent Steam. Makes her rougher that way too.

[Misery Rex]

Also remember that Sonnia gets a positive to hit against models with Wp6+, so it will get around the Vent Steam. Makes her rougher that way too.

With Rail Walking though Mei shouldn't be in range until she is ready to start with the punching.

(And if you have the Rail Golem getting handed Burning conditions does not hurt quite so much)

[chris_havoc]

Think we're getting de-railed talking about Mei Feng a bit she would definitely be the stronger choice against Sonnia or Perdita though.

@AWOL: Using the dance to that effect then only works on models with a 1" range. If you're already engaged a model with a 2" range wouldn't have to walk to hit you so would also diminish the purpose of using the dance to that effect.

The Drake is pretty much only slow in comparison to Misaki with wk 6 and Flight. Though, if you take Untouchable, you won't be wasting Misaki's 3rd action because she can defensive stance without spending a card until she gets into charge range. So she would still out-pace Sonnia and Rasputina easily.

What EternalVoid says is true though, Sonnia will be getting positives against the Drake so may offset the Counterspell but he'd still be struggling for triggers which seems to be where the synergy with her crew lies. So you may still find yourself burning through Soulstones that can't be used on Confiscated Lore. I'm not sure Archers are survivable enough against a crew that is pretty comfortable at range like Sonnia. To be honest if I was playing Sonnia with Misaki I would most likely play objectives as best I can and try do as much damage as possible with Misaki before she dies.

Never really faced Rasputina but I think it would likely be a matter of staying out of sight until you're close enough to jump her. I would probably play very aggressively against her.

[EnternalVoid]

To be honest if you are taking Misaki against Sonnia and Rasputina there is something both you and your opponent will be leery of and keep your eyes on; getting Misaki in combat with them.

When ever you face either of them the first thing you should do is take a long careful look at the crew's composition. For both of them you are looking for what can aid said masters. For Rasputina, it is what upgrades she has, what melee support she has, and finally how many models does she have in her crew and the percentage of them that have frozen heart with out needing it from her. For Sonnia it is much the same; what melee support she has, what can dish out burning for her, and if she has henchmen which one.

The problem with both of them is their ability to clear a model at range and making a mockery of the approach. With Rasputina she can easily put a model where they can see you and Sonnia will be looking to light you up to ignore LOS, or target WP6 to at least get around cover to hit. But both of them are most lethal at range and lose their best assault option once they are stuck in melee range. The game becomes doing something to stop them before they can do to much damage. That is why to me looking to their best Melee options is one of the key things, as that is the model that will try to extract the leader from a melee fight. The other being some sort of push affect that can extract them.

In this case I would see two basic options; The first is to look to have Misaki lock down the caster if all possible while having my crew try to stop VP and get VP. The second is if possible by Schemes, have Misaki use her speed to try and accomplish them by herself.

For Misaki to survive against them, I would consider using a Soulstone in defense rather than try something like Misdirection *Unless you have Hard to Wound +1 or better*. They are going to be looking for strait damage to insure blast. Meaning if they are targetting Misaki they are likely focusing to get the positive. As you will know if they are focusing or not before using soulstones you can see it coming. With the Soulstone at that point you just need a card high enough to insure a negative flip. With a double negative odds are they not doing their heaviest damage. If they burn up their AP trying to shoot her down then it protects your crew. Though the things you have to worry about at this point is stuff like Hopkins, Acolyces, and Rasputina's Paralyze Spell. Also if doing the burning trigger or the Overpower trigger, consider using another Soulstone to try and reduce damage to 0 if they did only 2 so that they don't get the effect.

[TarlSS]

I think bringing on someone like Killjoy could help Misaki against Sonnia/Rasputina. Even if Misaki dies, you can unbury Killjoy and they have THAT in their face. Plus you could also use torakage to 'pop up' in a big strike.

Misaki is very fast, and even if she dies, she could deliver a very unpleasant package.

[banshee]

Has anyone had any joy just tying them up with a cheap, resilient minion? I'm thinking launch an Illuminated or Rail Worker in their faces. Of course, they die but might keep them busy for a turn or two