Companion(Chain Activations) in M2E

[nilus]

A companion coupling?

A table for two?

Chain is fine I think.

Why do I feel like this could get very dirty very quickly

---------- Post added at 11:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:09 AM ----------

I think the 2 model limit is a good change and having a specific rule about it will help with the design and balance of future models. Also by using the companion and accomplice rules we are already seeing more models with the ability to chain activate in some manor. It remains to be seen how widespread this becomes and if certain "teams" will make there way into regular play.

Given that my opinion of Chain Activiation in 1.5 was never really a good plan 99% of the time, I think in M2E its even worse. APs are a commodity in M2E and you need to get as many as you can and be able to use them to react to your opponent. So I don't think large use of multiple activations will happen in M2E.

[decker_cky]

Given that my opinion of Chain Activiation in 1.5 was never really a good plan 99% of the time, I think in M2E its even worse. APs are a commodity in M2E and you need to get as many as you can and be able to use them to react to your opponent. So I don't think large use of multiple activations will happen in M2E.

That's a rather limited view of things. There's value in reacting, but there's also value in forcing your opponent to react to you. You don't lose APs in a chain activition, you just have a different order.

In many cases, it lets you set up a beatdown to remove an enemy model, which removes enemy APs. Particularly with something like taking out a regenerating model like Kang, Teddy or a Rail Worker (near bleeding edge), who may be tough to put down quickly otherwise.

It also could let you get a jump with an objective hunter to drop a scheme marker or two before your opponent can get a model in to cover the key area defensively.

Another advantage is getting a key aura in position along with the model you actually want to move into position (eg, Myranda's defensive along with another beast you actually want to push forward).

Lots of advantages to using chain activations - it's just not always (or even usually) the case.

[Dracomax]

Honestly, In M1E, I saw some really tough models go down in one turn to Cupid teleporting, followed by Lilith and a Mature Nephilim companion activating with the cupid right on top of where the tough model got teleported to. Used right, it could absolutely alter the course of the game. Especially if said tough model was a high cost model.(losing both Ashes and Dust and the Dust Storm before I had a chance to activate either really sucked, since that was well over a third of my SS worth of model)

Acting and reacting are nice, but in strategy and tactics, they are really only about how much control they give you. Reacting is always worse than acting simply because a reaction means that your actions are dependent on what the other person does. This gives the other person control over what you do. the amount varies, and depending on how well you know your opponent, can go from predictable(I know that as soon as he goes, he's going to gun for Sam Hopkins.) to unpredictable, but if you are reacting, you are always letting your opponent dictate your moves to one extent or another.

Note: this isn't necessarily a bad thing, because it lets you counter your opponent's actions, but it does give the control over to the active player from the reactive player. a good strategist can, with a little luck and a little knowledge, leverage that into a win at least 6 times out of 10 when both sides are evenly matched.

[bearn]

It was bad for entry level players but veterans never really got bothered with it IMO.

[Dracomax]

It was bad for entry level players but veterans never really got bothered with it IMO.

Honestly, you could say that about almost every aspect of M1E. Attack Vs. attack? veterans don't have problems with that. Dreamer boomerang? You just have to know how to face him. Hamelin? don't bring gremlins.

[Joel]

Oh, I don't know...

Not from companion perhaps, but certainly alpha strikes were used in top tier games.

Lilith brooding in a lilitu who then bonds her sister and 2 brothers across the board

Collodi, 4 marionettes and a wicked doll becoming a wood chipper

Both of which could wreck an opponents day. They weren't something you did every activation, but when they happened, they were bent.

[Clement]

I don't think anyone's brought this up yet, but the Chompy/Dreamer Yoyo of doom was a huge issue when it got released, and took huge advantage of some of the weirdnesses of companion.

[Q'iq'el]

I think the complaint issue is bigger than it being too powerful. It was something that could be very powerful when starting out, and created bad games, but it wasn't that powerful in the long run.

I think the key here is "against unexperienced opponents". If you knew what to expect, you could brace for it, and then the opponent probably wouldn't alpha-strike you in the first place (because then you'd have well prepared crew to respond and use all the activations to wipe him out).

It was one of several things which attributed to step learning curve and made people hesitant about starting Malifaux, so it makes sense it changed.

[Dracomax]

The issue there is that if you have to deploy/move to counter the alpha strike, then without doing anything, your opponent is already controlling your actions. Much like the original Alp Bomb, it was a passive way to gain an advantage without having to take an action, and required a different crew composition as well.

I'm not saying such things are inherently bad, mind you. Just that I prefer when you have to work for the ability to control your opponents decisions.

I do think that it was annoying to have to wait for your opponent to move 4 models before you could do anything.

[Q'iq'el]

The issue there is that if you have to deploy/move to counter the alpha strike, then without doing anything, your opponent is already controlling your actions. Much like the original Alp Bomb, it was a passive way to gain an advantage without having to take an action, and required a different crew composition as well.

This can be said about every powerful ability in every game, that's why I personally have always considered it invalid criticism. It is the very point of most powerful abilities to mess up with the opponents gaming plan - against skilled opponent, these abilities hardly ever work to their full extent and more often than not it doesn't make sense to spend resources on them, since the opponent is prepared. Instead, you exploit the fact the opponent had to prepare and couldn't commit to what he really wanted to do.

We could argue whether that effect was extensive or not, in case of the old alpha-strike, but the effect itself has never been a problem.

When a fresh player was trying Malifaux out, though, and experiencing a total early game wipe-out, due to an alpha strike, with perception there had been nothing to be done... well that was a turn-off and one of the reasons why people were critical of Malifaux and not willing to give it a try. Hopefully 2E fixes that alongside other entry-level problems.

[Dracomax]

You did catch the part where I said that such things aren't inherently bad, tight?

But I would say that any ability that requires you to design your entire gameplay around stopping it is bad for a game. and any ability or model that requires you to design your crew around stopping it when the only thing being announced is the faction is a terrible Idea.

I would disagree that it is an invalid criticism. I would say that it is a criticism that needs to be considered in context. Was the alpha strike OP? not really. Did it give an advantage that wasn't always commenserate with cost? Sometimes, because companion models could be fairly cheap. Heck, just consider the Showgirls. You could alpha with your entire crew and get them out of the action again by hiring performer to get a free mannequin. Or you could do it with a high card, a little luck, and a single soulstone. It was a powerful ability that could be bought with cheap models and used with expensive ones. Cost to power, it was all over the place, and needed some refinement. and few of those powerful abilities you mentioned could result in 1 round board wipes, regardless of whether they often did in high level play.

That being said, as I've said before, the big problem with the companion chain, and the alpha strike wasn't that they were OP. it wasn't the control it gave over the game. It was the fact it made the game slower and more annoying. it made it less fun to sit there and wait while your opponent moved all his stuff, then you did the same. it broke the flow of the game without making it more fun. and that is why it needed to change.