Lancer Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 Concerning C. Hoffman and his assimilate. I read that the talents that he gains through this end at the end of the turn. One is this true and two why does this happen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mach_5 Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 Assimilate creates an effect which gives Hoffman the target ability. Since Assimilate does not specify how long the effect lasts, it defaults to lasting until the Resolve Effects Step of the Closing Phase (see Timing on pg. 6 of the Rules Manual). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FearLord Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 1) Yes, its true. 2) Because effects without a stated end time, end at the end of the current turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancer Posted December 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 So why specify that an action ends at the end of the turn if that is the default? ... So even though it says he "gains" the talent, because assimilate is what caused it and it is an action that does not say when it ends that is why it ends at the end of the turn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 So why specify that an action ends at the end of the turn if that is the default? ... So even though it says he "gains" the talent, because assimilate is what caused it and it is an action that does not say when it ends that is why it ends at the end of the turn? A quirk of written rules. Sometimes they contain redundancies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancer Posted December 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 Ok last i was hoping if someone had another example of this happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausplosions Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 Ok last i was hoping if someone had another example of this happening. Yes, Every single effect that does not have a specified end time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancer Posted December 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 So Ronins have "peasant clothes: regain Harmless." does this mean harmless is lost at the end of the turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy'sLawyer Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 (edited) So Ronins have "peasant clothes: regain Harmless." does this mean harmless is lost at the end of the turn. Well..... Yes. But remember that Harmless and Pitiful reactivate at the beginning of every turn so they will have Harmless at the beginning of every turn. Think of it as the last step in every turn is end affects, unless otherwise stated, and the very first step of every turn is activate character abilities. (Like Harmless.) There are many examples where the end of the affect is not stated if you look through the book and all of them end at the end of the turn. Now when an affect lasts the rest of the Game it will state "till the end of the Encounter." if I am not mistaken. And those are rare. Edit: The other main type is where it states "when this model activates next." is the wording I believe, for stuff like Paralysis and Poison. Edited December 10, 2012 by Murphy'sLawyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 So Ronins have "peasant clothes: regain Harmless." does this mean harmless is lost at the end of the turn. This is kind of tricky, and could use elaboration, but Harmless has it's own end conditions specified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 Actually Harmless does not reactivate at the beginning of every turn. You have Harmless until you take any action other than Passing or Walking, then you lose it and you only get it back via an action or ability that gives it to you again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mach_5 Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 This is kind of tricky, and could use elaboration, but Harmless has it's own end conditions specified. The same could be said for many abilities that Assimilate can give to Hoffman. Assimilate says "This model gains one Talent or Spell...". There is no end specified for Assimilate so it ends (and the Assimilated talent/spell is lost) at the Closing Phase. In theory, he could Assimilate Harmless if a nearby Construct had that ability. Peasant's Clothes says "Regain Harmless", which is basically the same thing. Similarly the Oiran have (1) Sultry: This model gains the Harmless Ability". Neither specify an end time. Is the difference that Assimilate is an Ongoing effect and those others are Immediate Effects? Is it that "Harmless" is printed on the Ronin and Oiran's cards and so are not "effects" which must end? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy'sLawyer Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 (edited) Actually Harmless does not reactivate at the beginning of every turn. You have Harmless until you take any action other than Passing or Walking, then you lose it and you only get it back via an action or ability that gives it to you again. Hmmm...I'm being dumb. Thanks for the clarification. Edited December 10, 2012 by Murphy'sLawyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 Assimilating Harmless is a nice bit to theory over, really. The answer regarding Ronin and Oiran isn't that their abilities say when Harmless ends, it's that Harmless says when Harmless ends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancer Posted December 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 but one could say that you gain the ability and then assimilate ends but the ability is not assimilate it is just gained through assimilate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amor sanguinis Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 And then my brain exploded!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausplosions Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 but one could say that you gain the ability and then assimilate ends but the ability is not assimilate it is just gained through assimilate. Then why does Lazarus need to discard 2 scrap counters to keep the assimilated ability? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 but one could say that you gain the ability and then assimilate ends but the ability is not assimilate it is just gained through assimilate. What abilities can C. Hoffman Assimilate that have their own end conditions specified? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mach_5 Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 Tunnelling from a Soulstone Miner for example? ---------- Post added at 05:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:21 PM ---------- Or Link from a Mannequin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 (edited) Tunnelling from a Soulstone Miner for example? Yeah, and before the Buried errata, people were making use of it. Or Link from a Mannequin? Now there's an interesting bit to mull over. Edited December 10, 2012 by Jonas Albrecht Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mach_5 Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 Yeah, and before the Buried errata, people were making use of it. Lol, well yeah, just saying! The point is, both Assimilate and Peasant's Clothes/Sultry/etc use basically the same wording. We can all agree that Assimilate ends at the end close phase (or Lazarus wouldn't need the discard 2 scraps ability) and I think it's generally understood that Regaining or Gaining Harmless is permanent in the case of Peasant's Clothes/Sultry/etc. So why are they different? ---------- Post added at 05:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:25 PM ---------- What about Assimilating Harmless from a mechanical dove! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 What about Assimilating Harmless from a mechanical dove! As with Link, this is something to consider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancer Posted December 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 Lol, well yeah, just saying! The point is, both Assimilate and Peasant's Clothes/Sultry/etc use basically the same wording. We can all agree that Assimilate ends at the end close phase (or Lazarus wouldn't need the discard 2 scraps ability) we cant all agree that is why i am here. lazarus has a condition to not lose the ability so couldnt you say that since hoffman has no rule he is free from losing his ability? he gains the talent so he now has that talent so should it be that talent's rules that determine when it ends? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 Not really. Since Assimilate is a Talent that doesn't specify when it ends, it ends at the end of the turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancer Posted December 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 alright thank you all so much for your help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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