Vanessa and activating artifact

[Barbagianni]

Ok, you can add a suit that stays until a trigger is used, but here the questions:

1-it expires in the end phase or until the model actually uses the trigger (thus creating 'loaded whirlwind' viks from turn 1)?

2-if bishop uses adaptive fighter to add a :rams to his cb, then vanessa adds another :rams , does he ends with a :rams :rams or they don't stack?

3-if I cast activate artifact twice, does it stacks? I mean, can I give a model 2 different suits in one turn? Or even the same suit twice? (yes, I'm thinking about critical strike here).

[Ozz]

1, It goes at the end phase, as whilst it says it can only be used once, it does not say it last until the first time it is used. There for not specifying an end time, so it must end in the closing phase.

2, The ability's have the same result, but different names, so they should stack.

3, Spells and ability's of the same name do not stack.

---------- Post added at 07:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:26 PM ----------

Sorry, just thought over what i said there, and it is all negative But as far as i understand that is how they would all work just above.

[Kadeton]

Yep, Ozz's answers seem correct to me.

[Tokaji]

1, It goes at the end phase, as whilst it says it can only be used once, it does not say it last until the first time it is used. There for not specifying an end time, so it must end in the closing phase.

I can't be sure on this, since I don't have the book handy, but if it does say 'until used for a trigger', then the suit should stick around until the 'until' is fulfilled. That technically is an ending point.

[Barbagianni]

The ability reads: friendly models, including this model, gain the chosen suit to their Cb. The model can activate one Cb trigger using the suit. Once a trigger has been activated using the gained suit, the model loses the gained suit.

[decker_cky]

Reads to me like there's a duration on it - it lasts until a trigger is activated using the gained suit.

[egoon]

I disagree with decker.

It says that the effect vanishes once used, not lasts until used. At least to me that would mean that the effect ends at end of turn...

[Ausplosions]

Molly can keep a Spell till she herself uses it. That's why people cast the stolen spell through her totem.

I'd say it stays until used as it is the same principle.

[egoon]

But the wording is different for Molly's Whispered Secret.

'Gain one of target's (1) Spells. This spell lasts until this model casts the nominated Spell, or casts this spell again.'

To my mind, that clearly states a duration: until either spell is cast again.

Vanessas AA only specifies an additional condition that will cause the spell to end.

[Barbagianni]

As much as I'd like it the other way, I feel egoon is right.

[Therril_83]

I'm also with Egoon on this one. It doesn't state "lasts until" it just adds another timing to expire.

[Cunning]

I'm also with Egoon on this one. It doesn't state "lasts until" it just adds another timing to expire.

I'm not sure it has to use that exact wording does it? For instance "expires" is often the terminology used isn't it?

[decker_cky]

The actual timing rule on page 6 says "If an effect does not list an end point, it ends during the Resolve Effects Step of the Closing Phase (see p.30)."

I think that having an ability being lost "[o]nce a Trigger has been activated using that gained suit" quite clearly is listing an end point to the effect.

[Therril_83]

Again, this is a slight problem with Wyrd not being totally coherent with their wordings. But Vanessa states

Once a trigger has been activated using that gained suit, the model loses that gained suit.

Now, this only adds a time to expire. It doesn't state the end point. It should have said something like

Lasts until a trigger has been activated with the gained suit

I think there is a very very clear difference between these wordings, and I really hope that wyrd didn't mean the latter but wrote the former, because then I don't think we can rely on the "Rules as Written"-concept at all when it comes to this game.

[FearLord]

It doesn't actually say that the spell ends - rather that the gained suit is lost... It is possible that this was meant to be the same as the spell ending, but it seems an odd choice of words when the spell ending wording is far more common...

[Kadeton]

Mmmyeah... but imagine if it said "Once a trigger has been activated using that gained suit, the effect ends." That seems a clear end point. If the effect is to gain a suit, then "the model loses the gained suit" seems very similar to "the effect ends".

Personally, I don't think that's the way it was intended, mainly because it seems too good. Always better to err on the more reasonable side. My example above is basically just to point out that semantic arguments, as always, are a weak way to argue for anything. For example, "expire" and "end" are synonymous, so the distinction between a "time to expire" and an "end point" is hugely pedantic.

[FearLord]

Mmmyeah... but imagine if it said "Once a trigger has been activated using that gained suit, the effect ends." That seems a clear end point. If the effect is to gain a suit, then "the model loses the gained suit" seems very similar to "the effect ends".

Personally, I don't think that's the way it was intended, mainly because it seems too good. Always better to err on the more reasonable side. My example above is basically just to point out that semantic arguments, as always, are a weak way to argue for anything. For example, "expire" and "end" are synonymous, so the distinction between a "time to expire" and an "end point" is hugely pedantic.

It isn't really about that though - it is about whether the spell ends or whether the spell is still in effect - It would have been easy to have the wording be "The spell expires (or ends) once a trigger has been activated with the gained suit".

"Ends" or "expires" are the same, but "Losing the gained suit" isn't synonymous with "the spell is ended" - it could be, but it isn't clear.

[decker_cky]

You're thinking on the wrong scale though. The spell ending and the effect ending would be different in this case. The spell has an effect a number of models, and the timing of effects is on a per model basis.

The effect of the spell on a model is to give them a suit. There's a listed event which causes them to lose that suit - that's the end point of the effect. Other models at that point could still have the effect of the spell on them.

Edited October 31, 2012 by decker_cky

[MudgeBlack]

I have to agree with decker_cy.

The spell grants a suit to each model, the model gets the gifted suit until it is used.

I think it is worded the way it is so each model gets to use the gifted suit in turn rather than model A uses trigger, effect ends on all models and model B can't use the suit.

Just my take on the situation.

[sharpobjects]

I stand corrected. I looked at my notes and the effect was intended to last the entire game or until the suit is used one time in a trigger.

Disregard what was previously posted if you read it before deletion.

Edited October 31, 2012 by sharpobjects