New; Trying to choose crew based on gameplay

[Yojimbo]

Hello!

I'm a new player, and I'm sure my question has been asked dozens of times before, but I did do some forum searches, I've played with the crew creator and read the cards, I've been all over the pullmyfinger wiki, and I know I should find local henchmen and demo the game, etc. but it'd be nice to get some advice here.

I have experience playing other miniature and strategy games, and while I enjoy painting, most of the fun for me is in winning. Frankly I don't care whether or not this is considered a "tournament game," but I'm always happier when I choose a faction I enjoy playing, as long as I'm at least neutral about whether they "look cool." Also, I don't mind playing someone bad for beginners and losing 100 games before I finally win, as long as they're one of the more competitive Masters. I'm aware that the gaps between Masters/Tiers are pretty small, and that Storm of Shadows and any subsequent books will inevitably shake things up, but my point is I'd rather put in more effort than take the easy road or compromise on playstyle.

In miniature games I generally like playing the most mobile dudes in a given game, or if they aren't the fastest, it's cool if they have some kind of movement trick, like Undead moving during the Magic phase in Warhammer. I like being able to either use my mobility offensively to bite off part of the enemy and finish that chunk in a single turn, like Dark Eldar used to do in 40k, or defensively to brutally punish the opponent for overextending or making a mistake like Circle do in Hordes.

I'd rather just start with a Master who does this well and pick up the rest of their faction than just every master who more or less fits the bill. From what I've gathered off PullMyFinger and the rulebooks...

Kirai sort of plays like Circle, in that she hops from spirit to spirit evolving Seishin to punish the opponent and otherwise just uses them (and Night Terrors) to pick up Schemes and Strategies. Is this correct?

If I understand Leveticus, he's not quite as mobile, but he's similar to Dark Eldar in that he can pick off and kill pretty much any one thing dead in a single turn, except that he wants to die doing it because then you draw a new hand and re-spawn next to a Waif, and he shares their weakness at completing non-kill related objectives.

I understand Dreamer/LCB is similar to Leveticus in this regard? From reading the rules and the few practice games I've played, Leveticus - who is apparently the steepest learning curve - seems much easier to learn than Dreamer, before and after the big cuddle. They also both seem rather similar in that the crew supports the master, except Leve is a spellcaster and LCB is a melee beast. Any other noteworthy differences in their playstyles?

Finally I hear Lilith and Lady Justice are the Chocolate and Vanilla of aggro-beatstick masters. Both seem a bit average in speed, but how much do Lilith's Transposition and playing Judge-in-the-Box help in terms of getting them and their crews where you want quickly?

Any recommendations or advice? As far as "play what you like", Aesthetics/Story aren't a huge issue, and I don't mind not taking the "recommended" models (i.e. running Collodi with Leveticus, or Governor's Proxy seems WAY better than Scales of Justice) really I'm OK with anything except Gremlins and Arcanists. I plan to eventually branch out to other Masters in their factions, since the game is built around picking a crew after stuff is declared; how would you factor that in?

Thank you so much for your help!

[DarcXON]

Hmm, well to start off if what you want is just what is winning tournaments right now, I would say get the Neverborn. Predicting based on the new book, I would say get either Neverborn OR Ten Thunders. Having Factions to pull models from is a lot better than just specializing in a master as far as efficiency goes.

You will need a lot of practice with either of them as they require deep knowledge of the rules and target priority for them to be at their peak (specially the Dreamer, Pandora masters). Personally I believe Zoraida(and Avatar) to be their strongest Master.

Frankly with the introduction of the Ten Thunders Faction things may shift ever so slightly. I still think that my Outcasts will tan your hide :pumpkin:

[Yojimbo]

"winning tournaments"? No, I'm only just starting so not for awhile, and I'd like to win every game, I don't see how casual play is an excuse to slack off. I meant that only in the sense that I don't want to pick something up and find out down the road that they're one of the weaker Masters and I spent time and effort on pretty models. This is probably my LEAST favorite thing about Games Workshop games.

Also I'm sure your Outcasts are very good at beating new players, but my question wasn't "what do you think is the strongest faction," it was more specific. Thanks for your response though!

[osoi]

Alright from what you have written I would probably look at the following:

Kirai - Mobile lots of complex interactions and extremely flexible in how she can swing through each game

Lilith - Good mobility and crew generally functions a bit glass cannony

Viktorias - A nice movement trick and a lethal pairing. Lots of hit and run with them and Ronin.

Misaki - not out on regular release yet but her entire crew has mobility tricks, board manipulation, and some scary combat capabilities

I could also chuck in Collette, Marcus, Collodi and Dreamer in the super mobile arena but think the above ones probably would serve you better.

[DarcXON]

Also I'm sure your Outcasts are very good at beating new players, but my question wasn't "what do you think is the strongest faction," it was more specific. Thanks for your response though!

That was so not the point of my post >.<

I did mention that Zoraida (Avatar Zoraida) was the strongest Master in the, currently, strongest Faction. So I guess I'm saying play aZoraida. Honestly the masters considered for Top Tier are all close in power so you would have to choose what you prefer for playstyle

The Breakdown for me is this (not in order) Also all Neverborn in this List have Large Caches

LCB/Dreamer -- Pros -- High Mobility, High Damage(Melee), May trigger free attacks on the same model, has ways to reposition his ENTIRE crew and also take them off the board. Cons -- Activation/Action order will screw you over hard if you mess up, low defenses when they eventually catch you.

Lilith -- Pros-- High Mobility, High Damage (Melee), has ways to switch models, can see through all terrain, can create terrain. Cons -- Has average Wp and Ca making it almost a necessity for her to use Soulstones when casting spells or defending on Wp/Ca, doesn't have any other ways to mitigate damage than dodging.

Pandora -- Pros -- Extreme Mobility, Mass Debuff, Action Denial, Virtually Untargetable (new word--ish) to some models. --Cons -- if you find a way to bypass her Wp duel for targeting her she goes down really fast, goes through Soulstones pretty quickly to stay alive.

Zoraida -- Pros -- Extreme Mobility, High Control, Hard to Pin down, Can Give extra Actions to other models (Obey), Can Create Models for no resources (Just actions), Cast Range is "Board" against one non master model, Highest Wp in the Game. Cons -- Needs the Avatar or Other Models to "effectively" do damage.

Viktorias -- Pros -- High Mobility, Extreme Damage (Melee), May Hit Multiple Models Multiple Times, Can bring Elite Mercenaries on the cheap. Cons -- No Cache (this is big), Low Wounds

Kirai -- Pros -- High Mobility, Superb Support (healing, switching models), Ample Choices for Summoning , Effectively Having a Second Life thanks to her totem, Seishen make it harder to target her, Everything is potentially a spirit (half damage from non magical sources), Models have the choice to hit either Wp or Df (this is huge). Cons -- Magical Weapons / spells makes her crew die faster than she can sustain them if you are not careful.

Collette -- Pros -- Extreme Mobility, High Board Control, Can create Soulstones for cards, Has a free stone/reactivate, can effectively bury enemies, can potentially sacrifice enemies, may gain soulstones from killing models, Has Slow to Die and Use Soulstones. Cons -- Low wounds, and she has to carry her crew most of the game

Now you mentioned Leveticus but he is considered middle of the road for the tourney scene. So this is my take on him

Leveticus -- Pros -- Extreme Damage(the highest actually for both Melee and Spells), Can come back from the dead, May Sacrifice Models, May Bypass most defenses, Has a Large pool of minions to choose from (third Largest IIRC), Can ignore Effects that Trigger Discards, High Willpower, makes new models out of the ones he kills. Cons -- Low(est) Defenses (spread out on 3 models), You don't keep cards in your hand, Zero Cache, canine remains is almost an auto include in every list.

[Omenbringer]

I would venture a guess that you would probably enjoy Collette or Kirai most out of those crews you were looking to. As DarcXON posts above they are very mobile with a lot of tricks in the arsenal. Each is fairly potent as well. Both are potent on Offense or Defense and can be played straight foward or with finese.

As a bonus both crews look aesthetically pleasing when painted up and have some pretty nice fluff.

[Yojimbo]

Thanks for your help everyone, and for clarifying your first post with a second DarcXON.

Even if the top masters weren't close in power, I'd be willing to play someone who's not THE best for playstyle's sake.

I think I'll definitely give the Viks a second look, the lack of a cache seemed worrisome. Thanks for confirming and elaborating on Kirai too.

Zoraida and Leveticus seem hard because of the sheer size of their crew pools, but I never imagined Zoraida was THAT good so much as just unpredictable - thanks for the warning. On the other hand I really don't like most of the slow, straightforward Arcanist stuff so I'll probably pass on Collette as I'd be playing the faction for her.

Thanks!

EDIT: I'm thinking I'll go with Kirai - I think I get how she works, I like the Lost Love/come back as a spirit mechanic, and she gets any Spirit. Also apparently it's good etiquette to hand out thanks using a button, so let me find that.

Out of curiosity, of the corpse-dependent rezzers, are any of them above average? I've heard McMourning is middle-of-the-road, and nobody really discusses Nico's avatar so I don't know if that and Belles/Doxies help him with board control... Are either worth taking? Or are they even weaker than Seamus but not as cool-looking?

Edited October 26, 2012 by Yojimbo
Decided on Kirai

[DarcXON]

How big was the Dreamer/LCB cuddle? I understand he can no longer appear wherever he wants and eat things with the right activation order, but are they still strong?

Everything I wrote about the dreamer is post cuddle. Before cuddle it was something like

LCB/Dreamer -- Pros -- Extreme Mobility, High Damage(Melee), May trigger free attacks on the same model, has ways to reposition his ENTIRE crew and also take them off the board, Safe Guerrilla Tactics, May Kill a Model of his choice on the opponents deployment Zone turn one (needs a book of any kind to trigger all done). Cons -- Dont flip the black joker when you need All done, target priority is key.

[osoi]

The other Ressers are all fine, Seamus is the one who probably sufferes the most when not playing against models that arent living or undead but that only under certain crew builds, his crew is generally pretty zippy and durable.

McMourning is a beast in combat and good fun you only really need to worry about his Wp being targetted.

Nicodem just needs a large pool of models to choose from to be at his best, you can play elite or horde with him as he can be a great support model that just buffs the rest of the crew, heals them with decay and hands out paralysis.

I can go into more detail on each of them but if you are looking for a second master to pair with Kirai I would look at either Nicodem or Seamus.

Dont worry too much about the Vikkys 0 cache, you are getting 2 models as one master with them and taking 2-3 Ronin plus a Convict Gunslinger still leaves room in the kitty for a full cache plus a few more models

[Adran]

The Most mobile faction is probably Neverborn.

The Most mobile Leaders are (or leaders with good movement tricks)

Dreamer, Kirai and Collodi

Closely followed by

Colette, Lucius, Lileth, Hoffman, Pandora, Zoraida, Viktorias, Vonschill, Marcus, Perdita

There are several models that can be taken to improve a crews movement as well.

Personally I don't think any Master out there can't win a Major tournement if being used by a good player. Some may struggle with certain missions though.

I think the sudden rise in the relisation of Marcus's power or Sommer as they have been used by good players over the last two years has demonstrated that.

There is quite a difference between The Dreamer and Leveticus. Lord chompybits is much more like Lileth or Lady Justice in his damage output, but has very little durability. The Dreamer can potentially move his whole crew about the board at a whim, probably making him closer to 40K demons in being able to put close combat monsters where you want when you want. killing the Dreamer can be very hard when he is played well, but Chompybits is one of the easier masters to kill. Leveticus doesn't have much in the way of movement tricks himself or for his crew. He does have apocolyptic like powers when he does decide to kill things, but the recent rise in mobile crews has hurt his survivability as he struggles now to keep hollow waifs alive.

The 10 Thunders with their Tokarage are looking very mobile. The new Guild/TT master and crew looks very mobile, and also will increase the mobility of the faction as a whole.

All the ressurectionist masters look pretty good in the right mission and/or against the right opponent.

Terror tots and Transposition make a potent mix for the mobility of Lileth. Especially when her brood mother ability is in use to allow what ever she has just transpositioned to activate right after her.

Judge in a box is not a very good movement trick. Lucius with re-enforcement is currently the only good movement trick for Justice (but I still don't think Judge in a box is worth doing). Its pretty good though.

[Omenbringer]

The Most mobile faction is probably Neverborn.

The Most mobile Leaders are (or leaders with good movement tricks)

Dreamer, Kirai and Collodi

Closely followed by

Colette, Lucius, Lileth, Hoffman, Pandora, Zoraida, Viktorias, Vonschill, Marcus, Perdita

There are several models that can be taken to improve a crews movement as well.

Personally I don't think any Master out there can't win a Major tournement if being used by a good player. Some may struggle with certain missions though.

I think the sudden rise in the relisation of Marcus's power or Sommer as they have been used by good players over the last two years has demonstrated that.

I would add the Gremlins to that list of highly Mobile crews, between the Pig Boomerang and Pig Ladders it isn't difficult to have Pigs or Gremlins striking anywhere on the board in a single turn.

Also I would say that Som'er has been very competitive from the very start (even without the Infinite Red Joker draw) but for some reason just wasn't a super popular crew until fairly recently (probably due to the larger model counts and a higher learning curve for producing consistent wins). Initially most people dismiss them as a "fun" crew but definately not super serious or even competitive (probably because of some of their abilities like Y'all Watch This, Whoops!, Pull My Finger, Stampede, Dumb Luck, etc. which can produce spectacular results for both friendly and enemy models).

[dgraz]

Honestly I think I'd recommend 10T. Easy to start right now with Mei and Misaki....both high mobility assassination crews. When McCabe comes out he will be extremely mobile also. Yan Lo can be magic heavy and/or mobile....and Jakob has some sneaky mobility by summoning the Darkness in your face.

I think playtesting for book 4 was some of the most thorough and all of the 10T masters are competitive without being OP.

[CannonFodder]

I would concider Mei Feng & Colette, both have mobility, and colette is considered strong, but has a learning curve. I got Mei Feng at gen con and she is fun.

As for the rest of arcanist would not really intrest you, they don't have the mobility you would like. TT do appear to have some nice movement tricks. I really want to try torakage, but I already have 12 masters, and I banned myself buying from Asian Outcast a long time ago. I just don't know about TT as a faction, thye look like they have very little cross crew benefits. Also you will have to wait for most of the faction to come out.

I saw a post about Gremlins... I love the ophelia crew, I went to gen con only carrying them and was confident I couple play virtually anything... Pandora would be their biggest weakness.