Cyphre Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 Is it true that if Von Schill is enganged in melee and then activates that he can then still be targeted by disengaging strikes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 merlinman Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 he has a (0) action called Augmented Jump that lets him gain flight and it says "This model may not be blocked while disengaging." So if you want to get away you have to use a zero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Arcanum Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 As an aside I assume he can still take damage from them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 egoon Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 I've always assumed that no disengaging strikes are made when he has activated Augmented Jump. So I don't think a model with Wicked gets to make the disengaging strike just for the damage... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Arcanum Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 Thats what I always assumed as well (been playing him since release as well) But if the text on the card is written as: "This model may not be blocked while disengaging." I have neither book or card with me btw so will take this as gospel (not that I am doubting the poster) Then you still do the flips regardless (and apply any affects that might come about) its just that he is allowed to move off afterwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 sharpobjects Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 Thats what I always assumed as well (been playing him since release as well) But if the text on the card is written as: "This model may not be blocked while disengaging." I have neither book or card with me btw so will take this as gospel (not that I am doubting the poster) Then you still do the flips regardless (and apply any affects that might come about) its just that he is allowed to move off afterwards. After reviewing page 44 of Book 1.5 under the Disengaging paragraph, what you state above does not appear to be correct. From page 44 The moment a moving enemy model would leave a model's longest melee range, that model may interrupt the enemy's move and attempt to block it by making one melee strike, called a disengaging strike, targeting that enemy model. (The bolded words are also bolded in the paragraph on page 44, Book 1.5) To summarize; when you are making a disengaging strike you are in fact attempting to block the model from moving outside of your melee. Since Von Shill cannot be blocked, he cannot be striked as well. So wicked does not come into play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Kintaro Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 (edited) I think you might be bending that a bit too far one way, Sharpobjects. The block is a RESULT of a disengaging strike, NOT the strike itself. ATTEMPT a block WITH a strike. See? Just because he can't be BLOCKED doesn't mean he can't be targeted with a strike. You could target him with a strike all day long, IMHO, but he would still move off. UNLESS you had a model that could do damage via the strike or a trigger. Even then, he'd still move off...if he lived. Edited October 24, 2012 by Kintaro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 gonzo917 Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 I think you might be bending that a bit too far one way, Sharpobjects. The block is a RESULT of a disengaging strike, NOT the strike itself. ATTEMPT a block WITH a strike. See? Just because he can't be BLOCKED doesn't mean he can't be targeted with a strike. You could target him with a strike all day long, IMHO, but he would still move off. UNLESS you had a model that could do damage via the strike or a trigger. Even then, he'd still move off...if he lived. this brings up an interesting point that could affect a games. Does not being blocked mean he is unable to be targeted by disengaging strikes? if he can be targeted by disengaging strikes Wicked gets much more powerful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Kadeton Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 It is a strangely ambiguous wording. If it just said "Models may not make disengaging strikes against this model" there would be no confusion. The extra specificity tends to make it seem like there's more to it, but in general I've found that rules are often just more wordy than they need to be for their intent. I've always played that Von Schill can't be targeted by disengaging strikes, but it would be nice to have it clarified. If someone argued it at a tournament I would probably let them take the Wicked strike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 sharpobjects Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 When a model attempts to move out of an enemies melee, the owner of the enemy model may declare that he is going to attempt to block that model. You do not have to block a model from disengaging. You can just let it move away if you wish. You do not announce a disengaging strike, you announce that you are going to block the model from leaving melee. The way you block the model is by performing a disengaging strike that does not cause damage/wounds unless the model has the wicked ability. Wyrd has written that paragraph very carefully to highlight the word block and then follow that up with the explanation of how you actually go about trying to block a model once you announce that you want to try and stop them from leaving melee. The rules also state at the end of the paragraph that models being pushed, placed or switched cannot be blocked when they leave an enemy models melee range. With your logic, a model with the wicked ability gets to take a disengaging strike against these models as well. I also want to clarify a few other things that have been mentioned in several previous posts on this thread; No triggers can be declared by the blocking or moving model during the strike. There is no such thing as a Wicked strike. As mentioned, a model declares a block and performs a disengaging strike. If the model that is attempting a block has the wicked ability and is successful on the hit, that model may perform a damage flip against the model that attempt to leave melee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Adran Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 I agree with sharp objects. A disengaging strike is performed to try and BLOCK a minion from moving away. Von Schill can not be blocked, and so you can't make the strike against him. Models with wicked do damage in addition to ending the action. Don't end the action - No damage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Twisted Metal Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 Yeah you don't get to make the strike. Just like immune to influence if a model is immune to the effects of the action such as a wp resist, or in this case the block, you can't even target them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Kadeton Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 Good explanation, Sharpobjects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Kintaro Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 When a model attempts to move out of an enemies melee, the owner of the enemy model may declare that he is going to attempt to block that model. You do not have to block a model from disengaging. You can just let it move away if you wish. You do not announce a disengaging strike, you announce that you are going to block the model from leaving melee. The way you block the model is by performing a disengaging strike that does not cause damage/wounds unless the model has the wicked ability. Wyrd has written that paragraph very carefully to highlight the word block and then follow that up with the explanation of how you actually go about trying to block a model once you announce that you want to try and stop them from leaving melee. The rules also state at the end of the paragraph that models being pushed, placed or switched cannot be blocked when they leave an enemy models melee range. With your logic, a model with the wicked ability gets to take a disengaging strike against these models as well. I also want to clarify a few other things that have been mentioned in several previous posts on this thread; No triggers can be declared by the blocking or moving model during the strike. There is no such thing as a Wicked strike. As mentioned, a model declares a block and performs a disengaging strike. If the model that is attempting a block has the wicked ability and is successful on the hit, that model may perform a damage flip against the model that attempt to leave melee. Er...I don't get how you can quote the exact passage from the book and then go so completely against it. "The moment a moving enemy model would leave a model's longest melee range, that model may interrupt the enemy's move and attempt to block it by making one melee strike, called a disengaging strike, targeting that enemy model." The use of the word BY in the red part above is why I'm thinking what I am. You're targeting with the strike, NOT the block. The block is a result of the strike. seems to me that if you're annoucing the BLOCK, you're annoucing the wrong thing. You should be announcing the DISENGAGING strike. As for the end bit with Pushed etc, yeah it seems to me that if it says SPECIFICALLY can't be blocked (sorry don't have my book with me), this does not mean can't be TARGETED by the strike. I wouldn't agree that placed or switched is entering/leaving melee range....but it seems clear for pushed. The trigger bit was off the top of my head. sorry : ) I wonder why some models can do damage with disengaging strikes if they can only target those they can block. Doesn't make much sense. I agree this needs a tophat to clarify. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Hateful Darkblack Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 Wait, really? People are saying that Von Schill's can't be blocked by Disengaging Strikes thing doesn't actually stop you from doing disengaging strikes to him? This seems like a really odd line of argument to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Kintaro Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 Sorry for the double post but my last one was too long. So I have my book, and am looking at the disengaging bit (RB pg 48) Seems someone either didn't read far enough (not likely considering the END of the paragraph was referenced in a certain reply), or simply elected to omit the relevant bit of the paragraph we're discussing, in which it says "The strike does not inflict dg or wd, on the moving model if it hits. Instead, if the strike is a hit, the Action of the disengaging model ends immediately." The bolded bits are exactly how they are bolded in the book. Can't be much clearer than that :Paralyzed_Puppet: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 DarcXON Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 Wait, really? People are saying that Von Schill's can't be blocked by Disengaging Strikes thing doesn't actually stop you from doing disengaging strikes to him? This seems like a really odd line of argument to me. My brain is punching me for reading over this thread as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Kintaro Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 (edited) Wait, really? People are saying that Von Schill's can't be blocked by Disengaging Strikes thing doesn't actually stop you from doing disengaging strikes to him? This seems like a really odd line of argument to me. How so? Can't be blocked by disengaging strikes says he can't be BLOCKED, not can't be targeted by disengaging strikes. One is the effect of the other, as referenced by the rb passage I quoted above IE "if the strike is a hit". ---------- Post added at 07:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:42 PM ---------- My brain is punching me for reading over this thread as well... No need to make sideways snarky comments - clearly it wasn't so clear (to some) and was begging the discussion. Frankly I THANK objects for forcing me to get out eh RB and look at this passage again. ---------- Post added at 08:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:45 PM ---------- Seems its a moot point after all as his card DOES NOT say he can not be blocked, but that he IGNORES disengaging strikes. It was Merlinmans misquote that had me going on. Mystery solved lol! Yeesh. Edited October 25, 2012 by Kintaro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 sharpobjects Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 Seems its a moot point after all as his card DOES NOT say he can not be blocked, but that he IGNORES disengaging strikes. It was Merlinmans misquote that had me going on. Mystery solved lol! Yeesh. Kintaro you are incorrect with regards to what is written on Von Shills card. As I read it directly from the card; (0) Augmented Jump: This model gains Flight. This model may not be blocked while disengaging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 DarcXON Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 No need to make sideways snarky comments - clearly it wasn't so clear (to some) and was begging the discussion. Frankly I THANK objects for forcing me to get out eh RB and look at this passage again. Look I wasn't aiming that specifically at you, so don't think that it was personal. The main thing is that Von Schill has been talked about in rulings and many tacticas so it was almost silly for one of the most elusive models in Malifaux to be Rules Lawyered into submission. In any case this got solved so no reason to get upset Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 sharpobjects Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 he has a (0) action called Augmented Jump that lets him gain flight and it says "This model may not be blocked while disengaging." So if you want to get away you have to use a zero. Merlinman did not misquote the card. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Ausplosions Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 elusive? I'm not sure that's what you mean... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 DarcXON Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 elusive? I'm not sure that's what you mean... As in you can't pin him down, also his toughness could be taken as "escapes death". All in all that man is almost everywhere in the tourney scene. It's as if he was some sort of awesome Mercenary.... OMG He is Deadpool! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 sharpobjects Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 Er...I don't get how you can quote the exact passage from the book and then go so completely against it. "The moment a moving enemy model would leave a model's longest melee range, that model may interrupt the enemy's move and attempt to block it by making one melee strike, called a disengaging strike, targeting that enemy model." The use of the word BY in the red part above is why I'm thinking what I am. You're targeting with the strike, NOT the block. The block is a result of the strike. seems to me that if you're annoucing the BLOCK, you're annoucing the wrong thing. You should be announcing the DISENGAGING strike. As for the end bit with Pushed etc, yeah it seems to me that if it says SPECIFICALLY can't be blocked (sorry don't have my book with me), this does not mean can't be TARGETED by the strike. I wouldn't agree that placed or switched is entering/leaving melee range....but it seems clear for pushed. The trigger bit was off the top of my head. sorry : ) I wonder why some models can do damage with disengaging strikes if they can only target those they can block. Doesn't make much sense. I agree this needs a tophat to clarify. Quote's from Ratty Ruling on this Von Shill Augmented Jump Vs wicked and disengaging; Wicked just means you get a damage flip when you win a disengaging duel. If there is no duel there is no damage. SO Von Schill's Rocket Shoes of Doom TM would allow you to avoid it. Another Quote A block is a special interrupt you can make when someone leaves your melee range. Block referes to the entire event. Models cannot simply move past enemy models without risking an attack. To represent this, the moment a moving enemy model would leave a model's longest melee range, that model may interrupt the enemy's move and attempt to block it .. So this says you are making a block, it then goes on to explain how a block attempt is made. .. by making one melee Strike, called a disengaging Strike, targeting that enemy model. Here is the thread link http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?20473-Augmented-Jump-amp-Wicked&highlight=augmented+jump The short answer, Von Shill cannot be blocked and you cannot make disengaging strikes against him. Period. Wicked be damned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 DarcXON Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 I need to practice my Search/ Link Thread Fu more. It would avoid irritating people too much (regardless of how fun it is ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 ravenborne Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 You can't stop Von Schill with a disengaging strike because when you try, Von Schill laughs at you and jumps out of the way. Oh yes, and in addition all the rules back up that up as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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Cyphre
Is it true that if Von Schill is enganged in melee and then activates that he can then still be targeted by disengaging strikes?
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