Turbodog Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Hoffman + Guardian...seems like a no-brainer. But with the recent changes to Guardian making his stalwart ability an aura, he now has two tricks (stalwart and disrupt magic) that just don't work around Hoffman. And keeping him out of Hoffman's 3" dampening bubble so they do work means that he's not protecting Hoffman. Hoffman and Guardian seem now like an odd couple that are trying to help each other out and just can't. I'm not saying Guardian is totally bad or useless but what I'm wondering is... Is he still worth 7 points in a Hoffman list to you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemmingStampede Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 I absolutely believe he is still worth it. Hoffman copying Protect and using it is still a natural part of his tactics to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sholto Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Take the Mechanical Attendant and Hoffman can permit auras to originate near him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilus Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 I never thought Stalwart was his best ability. Protect still works and that's his bread and butter. When my Guardian is not cheating on Hoffman with Santiago or the Exorcist he is close by. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 That Protect chain is worth 7ss alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 I wanted to put some more thought into my response earlier, but had to run out the door. 4" is the magic range for the Guardian. Protect and most of C. Hoffman's abilities still function, and your awesome auras function like a boss. My experience with the Guardian is that it works best when used as a vanguard. You get in there and force your enemies to deal with your magic screw and high armor (Ace of Tomes!), and then ride in with the C.avalry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpangelu Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 Um. Another thing to consider is that Hoffman can ignore the "no aura/pulse" such. And I'm with everyone else on this, I actually coppied disrupt magic and then put it up as and then moved into range against Ophelia who tried casting spell and forgot he had it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headcase2 Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 Um. Another thing to consider is that Hoffman can ignore the "no aura/pulse" such. And I'm with everyone else on this, I actually coppied disrupt magic and then put it up as and then moved into range against Ophelia who tried casting spell and forgot he had it up. Hoffman can only ignore the Dampening ability if his totem is nearby. Anyway, Protect rules. His Stalwart aura isn't that good anyway if you're playing Hoffman, it tends to do more harm than good because as soon as you activate it an opponent could spam your models with weak attacks that suddenly do 2 damage instead of 1 (hurray for the Gremlin gun line!). Once active you also can't remove it for the rest of the turn (Maintain Machines doesn't remove effects, it only suppresses printed abilities). And Disrupt Magic... well, either live without or use Witchlings I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LupusFerreus Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 Can someone explain the Protect Chain to a newbie? I used the guardian yesterday with Lady J and my opponent was commenting on how he didn't think it works well with Hoffman. I'd like to be able to go back to him and disprove his thory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 Hoffman can assimilate Protect. Since he gains it, his totem can cast it too. This allows a transfer of wounds from between up to four models. Usually for me it's peacekeeper to totem to Hoffman to Guardian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headcase2 Posted July 18, 2012 Report Share Posted July 18, 2012 Protect chain 101: I don't run a Mobile Toolkit (I don't like Easy to Wound no armour models in the chain, it tends to overload too quickly that way) and a Mechanical Attendant can't keep up with the Hoffbal, so for me it's usually just Peace Keeper -> Hoffman -> Guardian. Hoffman assimilates Protect on turn 1 and casts it on the Peace Keeper, Guardian protects Hoffman, and now you can transfer wounds from the PK to Hoffman and from Hoffman to the Guardian as long as they are within 3" (Guardian uses Overprotective to keep up). Wounds that you drop on Hoffman can also be reduced by soul stones, which is why I like a healthy pool. The entire bubble is at least Armour +2, mostly Immune to Influence and it's one of the fastest moving things you can field in a guild list. It makes for a fairly nasty combination that many crews have difficulty neutralizing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osoi Posted July 18, 2012 Report Share Posted July 18, 2012 Mobile Toolkit gets a free push to connected master at the end of any activation (friend or foe) and Hoffman makes him ignore his Easy to Wound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headcase2 Posted July 18, 2012 Report Share Posted July 18, 2012 True, but that still doesn't give him armour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpangelu Posted July 18, 2012 Report Share Posted July 18, 2012 Wouldn't you only want armor on the first model? Or are you talking about if the toolkit gets targeted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 Mobile Toolkit does tend to create an easy point to attack in the chain, but I never had too much trouble with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osoi Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 Since hes height 1 though and on a small base its not hard to hide him behind the bigger models though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 Since hes height 1 though and on a small base its not hard to hide him behind the bigger models though It's really not. He's a very inauspicious model, and with his wounds going to Hoffman, few people bother with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnternalVoid Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 A thought to those that might worry about the mobile toolkit in the protect chain, you could always put it in the rear rather than in one of the center locations. Have the Guardian Protect Hoffman, Hoffman protect the peacekeeper, and the Toolkit protect the Guardian. That way if they do go out of their way to target the Toolkit it does not endanger the chain and force you to pass it to the guardian. In addition it gives several benefits from this location on the chain. 1. With its handy ability it can move base to base with Hoffman at any time any model's activation ends. Meaning unlike link it can wait till most models have activated before using this ability to move btb with Hoffman. That allows you to control when it can be targetted a little till it gets stuck into a mess. 2. With its 3 wounds it is not going to be able to absorb much for the Guardian but it might be able to steal a wound or two and prevent it from being destroyed before it can get another activation or to soak one more attack. With its 2 AP action Welded together it can do a healing flip on a construct, thus another possible healing flip on the Guardian if it managed to save it for an action. Also its welded together on the Guardian or itself will heal Hoffman 1 wound as well, not a bad idea to make plans like that when you are dishing out the wounds. If Hoffman takes 2 wounds and the Toolkit takes 1-2 that might save the Guardian enough for you to get its 0 Action self repair and the toolkits repair and thus not only heal Hoffman but heal several other wounds. More effective wound management. Also should it die Hoffman can pick up its scrap counter and use it for Combat Mechanic. 3. Hoffman likes making himself fast, but he also likes his constructs getting their AP for their own actions. The Toolkit is a good target when you don't think you will need Welded Together *or you plan to take out the toolkit by passing wounds to it*. Better to make the toolkit slow then the Peacekeeper or guardian generally. 4. It is a source of one more spell if necessary. Not the greatest reason but it can cast that extra 1AP spell for Hoffman for a little added damage or a heal if another scrap counter is about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headcase2 Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 Okay, but if you insist on using the Mobile Toolkit, why not cast Protect on the Guardian, placing the Toolkit at the very end of the chain? That way your chain isn't as easily interrupted. There are a lot of fast crews out there that can easily get in a position to attack the Toolkit even if it's hidden, and then all of a sudden either you let it die and the PK is vulnerable, or you're moving a load of damage to Hoffman or the Guardian. I realize this strategy leaves the Toolkit vulnerable and it only absorbs 2 wounds before it's maxed out (short of dying), but if you keep it hidden there's less of an incentive to attack it now. And on a final note: at 4 points the toolkit is more expensive than a flashlight... Think about it next time before you say "auto-include". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 It's not at the end because there's no point for it to be at the end. The idea is to protect a valuable model that people can kill fairly easily. Since the Guardian can sometimes have trouble keeping pace, I prefer to use C. Hoffman as a shunt for the Toolkit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headcase2 Posted July 20, 2012 Report Share Posted July 20, 2012 We'll have to agree to disagree. I explained why I'd place it at the end of the chain, but if your play style prefers it in the middle, well, more power to you. :Robot1: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 (edited) We'll have to agree to disagree. I explained why I'd place it at the end of the chain, but if your play style prefers it in the middle, well, more power to you. :Robot1: Well lets examine our two preference for running the Mobile Toolkit in a Protect chain. Peacekeeper > Hoffman > Guardian > Toolkit & Peacekeeper > Toolkit > Hoffman > Guardian Putting the Toolkit at the end there might give the Guardian two more wounds, but it means letting the totem get picked off at your opponents whim. Also, and this is something experience Hoffman players know, you're not always going to have the Guardian within 4 inches of you. Sure, it does that push at the end of the round, but that's at the end of the entire round, after everyone's done attacking you. Again the reason I run the second chain is for the benefit of the Mobile Toolkit. It's a very valuable model to C. Hoffman, and keeping it alive is always a goal of mine. Edited July 21, 2012 by Jonas Albrecht Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTDemon777 Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 Ok, i still have a few questions about protect chaining. So armor only affects the last model in the chain and takes all the dmg or is it distributed like warmachine bastions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 Ok, i still have a few questions about protect chaining. So armor only affects the last model in the chain and takes all the dmg or is it distributed like warmachine bastions? Protect doesn't transfer Damage, it transfers Wounds, which means we're already past the damage reduction stage when it takes effect. Example: Peacekeeper takes a whopping 7 damage. Its armor reduces that to 5. That 5 damage becomes 5 wounds, which you can then transfer to the Guardian. Now, the Guardian has Armor +2 as well, but this wound transfer does not effect the incoming wounds. If you transferred all of them, The Guardian would suffer all 5 wounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LupusFerreus Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 So you don't have to transfer all the wounds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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