A Question on Trigger Happy and BYOG

[mpangelu]

So, (I'm also considering writing a bat rep on this as well), but in a game this past Friday, we had something come up that we weren't sure how it worked.

Santiago shoots at Somer and Peaches (aSomer). Santiago gets a trigger happy trigger, Somer gets BYOG. Trigger happy states after damaging defender with a paired peacebringer strike, immediately make another paired peacebringer strike against defender. BYOG says after being damaged by a rangedstrike, summon a bayou gremlin within 6" of Somer..

Ok, so I hit him, and get trigger happy, he gets BYOG, places the summoned Gremlin within 1" of my model. What then happens? Santiago now has a gremlin within melee range of him. We played it as Santiago gets the trigger happy since it isn't a new AP and isn't targeting a model. But still we were wandering about an official ruling on this or at the least other people's opinions.

(Also bear in mind, imagine trigger happy with melee on a convict gunslinger(has gunfighter)... scary)...

[Omenbringer]

Santiago would be unable to make the second Peace Bringer strike (from Trigger Happy) because he is now in melee with the summoned Bayou Gremlin.

In the case of the convict gunslinger, the second paired pistols strike could be made only if the initial target (that trigger happy was used on) was in melee with him. If the initial target was not in melee with the convict gunslinger, then you could not perform the Paired Pistol Strike granted from trigger happy on him because you can not perform strikes when engaged in melee (Page 41 of the Rules Manual).

Edited July 15, 2012 by Omenbringer

[TranquilitiesEnd]

I would have thought that because Trigger Happy says Immediately after damaging target, make another strike, and BYOG does not say Immediately, then you would continue to make shots, however many times as you pull the Trigger Happy off, and then after that BYOG (possibly several BYOG's) would then summon Gremlins.

[Ausplosions]

I would have thought that because Trigger Happy says Immediately after damaging target, make another strike, and BYOG does not say Immediately, then you would continue to make shots, however many times as you pull the Trigger Happy off, and then after that BYOG (possibly several BYOG's) would then summon Gremlins.

Yeah, I immediately happens before anything else.

[Omenbringer]

Yeah, I immediately happens before anything else.

Not quite true.

This has been ruled previously with other triggers that have similar wording (Here is the link to the interaction of Squeel! and Onslaught).

You have to complete the current action (in this case the initial Paired Peacebringer Pistol strike) prior to starting the next strike granted by Trigger happy. This means that you have to also resolve the Defensive trigger prior to the free strike from Trigger Happy.

So it will look something like this.

1. Paired Peace Bringer strike successful
   
2. Trigger Happy trigger announced
   
3. BYOG trigger announced.
   
4. Damage generated from Paired Peace Bringer Strike
   
5. Damage Applied to Avatar Som'er
   
6. BYOG trigger requirement met and generates Bayou Gremlin Summon
   
7. Initial Peace Bringer Strike resolved begin "free" paired Peace Bringer strike generated by trigger happy, checking range, LOS, etc.

If your opponent summons that Bayou Gremlin from BYOG within melee range of Santiago then the "free" strike from trigger happy is wasted since you wont be able to perform it since you are within melee.

Edited July 16, 2012 by Omenbringer

[dgraz]

Yeah, I've been playing with Santiago a long time and it's a constant problem watching for wonky movement effects that engage him in melee during a Rapid Fire or Trigger Happy chain.

Omenbringer definitely has it right in that the first strike needs to be completely resolved....the BYOG would interrupt the strike before it was completed.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Our local timing rules have been "attacker's trigger resolves first". It cuts down on these problems.

[dgraz]

Our local timing rules have been "attacker's trigger resolves first". It cuts down on these problems.

Just to prevent any possible confusion. That's a house rule, not the actual rule.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Just to prevent any possible confusion. That's a house rule, not the actual rule.

Correct.

[Omenbringer]

And in complete opposition to the official strike resolution timing rules that were posted on the forum a few months back.

[Jonas Albrecht]

And in complete opposition to the official strike resolution timing rules that were posted on the forum a few months back.

Also correct. We've just found what works best for us.

[Omenbringer]

Seems to me this would lead to more confusion, especially when players go to competitive events in other communities.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Seems to me this would lead to more confusion, especially when players go to competitive events in other communities.

Well, if we ever get around to meeting up with other communities or going to tournaments, that will be a concern to address.

[dgraz]

Yeah, nothing wrong with a house rule if you don't travel to events. A group can agree that they prefer certain things and just play that way when the play each other.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Yeah, nothing wrong with a house rule if you don't travel to events. A group can agree that they prefer certain things and just play that way when the play each other.

It's one of the advantages of having a small league. And honestly, if playing by a different set of rules keeps us from turning on each other at every get together like the other wargaming group we share space with, I call it a great victory.

[mpangelu]

Well apparently we also house ruled that when flipping a red joker you always add an additional card.. regardless of what it was for.. and it was only this past weekend we actually went.. heyyyyy... wait a sec.. its only on dmg.. so we been playing wrong for a LONG time on that one...

On the subject of house rules, there is nothing wrong with them, as is there nothing wrong with using rules as is. Just because a group uses the rules as written doesn't mean they will turn on each other in a more competitive state. While, the groups you share space with might do so, I've played with friends who have a very friendly and play as you go attitude in local places, but at other foreign tournaments are very fierce by the rules players. I don't see how they can be mutually exclusive.

edit: I had misread something in previous post and edited appropriately.

Edited July 16, 2012 by mpangelu

[Jonas Albrecht]

This post never happened.

Edited July 16, 2012 by Jonas Albrecht

[mpangelu]

Fortunately for you then, it was a specific comment aimed at a specific group. A group that cannot go a single get together without literally shouting at each other.

Sorry your reply beat my edit, if you will see my edit has that removed as I mis-read your comment.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Sorry your reply beat my edit, if you will see my edit has that removed as I mis-read your comment.

Roger.

[Q'iq'el]

I find it not all that difficult to remember. The only problem to really watch for is - "does the trigger generate new action, or adds an effect?".

If there's a new action, like Strike or Cast, it will happen after the original Duel is entirely resolved (and the "immediately" refers to the fact the other side cannot start their activation just yet, should it be their move).

If there is a Placement Effect, Movement Effect, extra damage or anything of that sort, it gets executed exactly when the trigger says it is and it will interrupt the flow of the Duel.

There are some very specific cases where timing of the triggers and abilities has wider consequences (The Executioner being one of the main culprits here), but I'm of opinion the players who bring such atrocities to the table should worry about explaining the rules right.