Sex in the Game - a barriers to entry discussion

[ThePandaDirector]

I'll keep this short shall I?

Edit: Ok so I found this thread which highlights just how controversial the topic of sex in games can be, so lets keep this focussed on barriers for female gamers and not too much about how much y'all like your big real/fake boobies *rolleyes*

Anyway, as established here it seems that sexualised miniatures still cause a stir in both men and women.

Now it is important to establish right off the bat this is primarily about the barriers to entry for female hobbyists as well as what effect sexualised miniatures (both men and women) have on gamers and non-gamers of both sex. Keep it polite.

So starting off I'd like to come out the closet and confess... I am a man *hangs head in shame* but I'm also a Scotsman *raises fists in a "Hell yeah!"* I'm usually not offended by anything, but do have an opinion on what I think is distasteful or just plain dumb. Seeing a potentially amazing model like this and having it go from "awesome steampunk gunslinger" to "steampunk babe" is quite sad because the emphasis is not what would initially draw me to the model *files case under dumb*.

It's not just miniatures though, it's everything. So while it's true that "sex sells", it's important that we know where to draw the line and when we go from having fun to consistently objectifying people. There was someone on my course at uni who petitioned to have all the lad mags removed because she thought they were insulting to the portrayal of women in the media. As a man, those magazines aren't even a blip on my radar, but "celebrity" magazines disgust me and I feel they are a genuine risk to the portrayal of people in the media. So its mostly relative what we consider harmful to the portrayl of the sexes. Likewise what we feel is distasteful, in profitting from that base fact that we all objectify each other as a natural beings, is also subjective.

I know more men who have interest in female issues than women, and not in a "overbearing masculine" sense. These same men would be just as off put by backward sex appeal marketing as women are sometimes expected to be. It seems the world is becoming at least slightly more mature as far as sex goes, even if 50 Shades of Grey would say otherwise

But bringing it back to gaming, it is clear that there are stereotypes as well as group-think evidence that suggests that the vast majority of hobbyists are men. So the two questions are:

1) What reinforces the perception of a male majority other than just seeing male majorities in a gaimg store (which most non-gamers have never been to) and how does sex in miniatures (as opposed to other industries) effect that perception?

2) What are the true barriers to entry for female hobbyists and how would appeasement effect the perception of the industry?

I'll stop myself here for now and let some hot babes (and men pretending to be hot babes) talk before they go fetch me a sandwich. You go girls!

Note: If you are a women then just let it be known (if you wish) so we can maybe get a better idea (can't seem to edit a poll in)

Edited July 15, 2012 by ThePandaDirector

[morella]

Argh, now I've stepped in it. Let me collect my thoughts and I'll be back. On this note, just out of curiosity, it would be interesting to have a poll to find out the perceived % of female gamers, because really I have no idea. I'm (a little) older, so I have a twenty year memory of going to LGS and a lot has changed in that time by my observation (as in, more women), so a lot of my perceptions which have been formed in the past may not be the same as younger women. So step up and talk young (and older) ones!

You didn't say this, but I wanted to note, I am not fond of the term "gamer girl" because, in my case it is not really accurate, and also can be somewhat diminutive depending on its use (as in, I wouldn't refer to anyone over the age of 16 as a gamer boy; also, it's possible I may not have minded so much ten years ago)

Will come back to this in a while.

---------- Post added at 02:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:42 PM ----------

I'll be throwing stuff up in multiple posts to separate relevant points. And for anyone who is like "What?" this is an offshoot of a side conversation that started in the thread referenced above by PandaDirector. But please, ladies and gents, feel free to pop in on the conversation. I know there are quite a few ladies who use the forum, so I personally would appreciate hearing from them, as I really don't want to be the voice for my gender (that would be a mistake for everyone involved)

[Jonas Albrecht]

With the release of the Desperate Mercenaries, I realized just how tired I was of game companies trying to sell their product to my wang instead of me. I don't need T&A to get interested in an RPG, or a tabletop game, or the next Beyblades- I need a good game with lots of interesting bits in it that aren't part of someone's anatomy.

Not only that, but I feel like Wyrd is sort of just going down a notch with their female Masters.

Look at Book 1. You've got:

Head of a monster/witch/undead hunting unit.

Bounty Hunters

Leader of an entire race of beings trying to excise otherworldly invaders

A chain gang escapee turned cult leader

Book 2:

A burlesque magician

A rescued prostitute

Also that dreadful bit where, Cassandra, so desperate to get Ramos *attention*, waves her $$$$$$$$ in his face. Hepbleh.

[ThePandaDirector]

@Jonas: Has that made you feel alienated or are you worried how it affects others? What experience have you had of it affecting friends of both sex, especially any non-gamers?

To be fair my attitude is a little differenet, I quite like Colette because she takes that sexualisation and *could* twist it around. She's a female character trapped in a male dominated world. As for Kirai I prefer someone like her to big swordwielding "babes" like Lilith or Sonnia (though both their actual characters grew on me more in time). Kirai's story is a bit more like Hoffman, i.e. there is genuine tragedy and frailty there (though no one is as good as Hoffman).

But I'm curious how this "sex" affects the perception of the audience and more importantly what the real barriers to entry do women face, because it's not all just about sex.

[Jonas Albrecht]

I feel like it makes my hobbies incredibly juvenile sometimes. Like I'm almost supposed to hide it from people.

I don't, cause honey badger don't give a damn.

[ThePandaDirector]

Oh I've defintely been in a place where I feel almost ashamed to speak up about the hobby because I feel those I'm talking to have already dismissed it. I'm sure comic book readers and digital gamers had the same problem before those became social norms.

[morella]

From the origin of this thread, I will just reiterate that as far as the sexualization of women (and men) in models, comics, the media, whatever - I just don't care. I know there's a lot of people who do, and I've met a few women who get really upset at me for not feeling strongly about it, but there's just so many other things to get ticked off about in the world.

I just don't like poorly executed models, regardless of what they're wearing.

And for me, I found the scene with Cassandra amusing. But then, I've known a few women who would do something just like that.

This genre (comics, fantasy, sci-fi, etc) has a history of augmented physical representations, both male and female, so it is really hard to separate what is continuing the expectations and what is playing with them in a new way as a means of critique.

added - took too long writing this, so I was referring to stuff from several posts back

Edited July 15, 2012 by morella

[Jonas Albrecht]

Yeah, but it's a false equivalency. A dude in a loincloth being a badass isn't the same as a lady in a chainmail bikini twisting herself into an awkward "S" pose.

[ThePandaDirector]

Like I mentioned, I know a girl who did a dissertation on the portrayal of women in film and hates that sort of "smut", but I also know a girl who often plays the "girl card" to get help (funnily enough I know two girls who do that, one for good, one for bad =P)

@morella: So what, in your opinion, are the real barriers?

[Sliver Chocobo]

Oh I've defintely been in a place where I feel almost ashamed to speak up about the hobby because I feel those I'm talking to have already dismissed it. I'm sure comic book readers and digital gamers had the same problem before those became social norms.

Yes, on the other forum I'm on we've talked the subject to death, bought it back as a zombie only to talk it to death again

[Jonas Albrecht]

Like I mentioned, I know a girl who did a dissertation on the portrayal of women in film and hates that sort of "smut", but I also know a girl who often plays the "girl card" to get help (funnily enough I know two girls who do that, one for good, one for bad =P)

The lesson here: Women aren't a single entity. Which means the "I know a girl who's okay with it" argument is and always has been nonsense.

[morella]

@Panda - quit pestering me! I'm getting to it!

Before I start expanding on what I had mentioned previously, I just want to note that, my perceptions may be skewed due to social anxiety issues, so I'll try to be clear when relating any examples

[ThePandaDirector]

The lesson here: Women aren't a single entity. Which means the "I know a girl who's okay with it" argument is and always has been nonsense.

Ironically I was trying to show balance by saying I know girls (there I go again) on both side of the fence. I also know guys on both side of the fence. At the end of the day most people may not even care about the damn fence and have a whole other issue (that morella has kindly informed she is getting to )

Though if you do read up on the feminist debate (I don't but a "guy I know" is fascinated by it) there is the belief that men and women should be less worried with the opposing sex, i.e. there shouldn't be male feminists because to do so is like saying your a holocaust survivor and know what that entails when you're not an actual holocaust survivor (very extreme example). That said, as much as I attest to issues of race and sex being non-issues and falling under common sense and courtesy (a distant dream it seems), I do think that there are seperate barriers and issues unique to different demographics and women just happen to hold an apparent majority in one demographic that is arguably alienated by current miniature game products and marketing.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Ironically I was trying to show balance by saying I know girls (there I go again) on both side of the fence. I also know guys on both side of the fence. At the end of the day most people may not even care about the damn fence and have a whole other issue (that morella has kindly informed she is getting to )

Though if you do read up on the feminist debate (I don't but a "guy I know" is fascinated by it) there is the belief that men and women should be less worried with the opposing sex, i.e. there shouldn't be male feminists because to do so is like saying your a holocaust survivor and know what that entails when you're not an actual holocaust survivor (very extreme example). That said, as much as I attest to issues of race and sex being non-issues and falling under common sense and courtesy (a distant dream it seems), I do think that there are seperate barriers and issues unique to different demographics and women just happen to hold an apparent majority in one demographic that is arguably alienated by current miniature game products and marketing.

Were Feminism just about female empowerment, that would be a weird argument. Basically, that's saying "The privileged shouldn't have to acknowledge their privilege."

Since Feminism is about freeing both genders from their socially constructed roles, it's just wrong isntead.

Edited July 15, 2012 by Jonas Albrecht

[morella]

I've rewritten this post several times. Let me change tact. I've moved around enough to experience several different scenes. The best I've known was when I lived in Orlando, FL and went to a really tiny game store, which was not a comic store, and was run by gamers. I think it makes a difference, because at this shop there was almost always someone hanging around, being friendly and happy to talk about the hobby. On the other hand, I've more often been to stores where I am either completely ignored (and I have no idea, they may have ignored everyone), and if I was not alone, I have had employees talk to the guy I walk in with and I have to say no, he's only here because I dragged him along. SO, my number one barrier comes down to the attitude of the people who work at the stores, because it will make or break my decision on whether I'll show up regularly, or just order stuff online and paint.

---------- Post added at 03:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:24 PM ----------

See this is why I stay far away from the feminism issue. I just want to be able to do what I want, be nice, have other people be nice. It's possible that other people's choices can impact me in a negative way, but I just feel that personal freedom is the more important consideration.

[Ratty]

I think also part of the issue is the HUGE gulf between what men think girls want to play and what girls actually want to play.

I worked at GW for years, and I saw time and time staff members go "Your a girl, I know what you will like, Elves and Eldar". My approach was to ask them what kind of thing they enjoyed painting. And more often than not it was Tyranids and Skaven (Really it was a noticeable trend).

So the best thing is not to worry and give a good cross section of choices and let people choose for themselves. I've know Girls that don't like any of the Book 1 Masters, but really love Colette or Kirai. I know Girls that love Seamus, because he really is a beefcake. I would have far more issue, and I think probably so would the female gamers (though I don't think to speak for them), if every female character was a self empowered gun totting, sword wielding monster hunter.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Do you have a problem with that being the case for the male Masters? The self-empowered part, I mean.

[Ratty]

Do you have a problem with that being the case for the male Masters? The self-empowered part, I mean.

I think the male Masters should be a real mix too. And to be honest there is a mix, I would hardly say Hoffman is self-empowered. Seamus and McMourning are hardly all there, Leveticus and Ramos though intelligent are not your traditional adventuring he-man types from other game. There is a good mix of ages, and architypes.

[morella]

Hey, Eldar was my first army! But I totally agree, I like the diversity of choices. My first master was Lady J, not for her but for the DM, cause they looked cool.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Hoffman was literally empowered by his trip through the Breach.

Yep, there is a good mix of different types of male archtypes available. There should be for the women, too.

[ThePandaDirector]

Were Feminism just about female empowerment, that would be a weird argument. Basically, that's saying "The privileged shouldn't have to acknowledge their privilege."

Since Feminism is about freeing both genders from their socially constructed roles, it's just wrong isntead.

I was refering to custody of feminist issues, which is focussed on equal rights through female issues. Men have their own free rights movements and women don't have custody over that. Men can be pro-feminist but can't be a feminist. Sexism deals with prejudice of both sexes. So it's a universal issue, with everyone involved and responsible, but the ownership is specific to those who suffer it.

And that's why I don't get too involved in feminism

And while I will be starting my gamer club research during my actual masters, I think they're very important in every aspect of the industries connection to its gamers, not just women. But yeah, I've found good/bad staff to be a 50/50 flip in my limited experience of the industry. That of course is relative too.

@Ratty: The girlfriend of one of my friends, also an ex-GW staff member, collects Tyranids. Interesting =]

[LupusFerreus]

I think Sonnia Criid is a good deal different in terms of representation from Lady Justice, or as she's known down my LGS, "Lady J-boobs". I think, from looking at the fluff, Sonnia Criid could have been written as a man or a woman - there is no gender issue in her being badass and interesting to like.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Again, Feminism is also about freeing men from the current social power paradigms, which means that it's not something that excludes men. I don't like to use the term "suffer", but I feel the expectations of me as a man in this society are dumb and I want nothing to do with them. Middle finger to you, Societal Gender Constructs!

[Ratty]

Hoffman was literally empowered by his trip through the Breach.

That is true, but if you are going to make that argument then the same is true of every Master in Malifaux. Hoffman is still unsure of himself, being played by both sides, he's still infirm without a construct to protect/carry him. So I wouldn't say Self-Empowered, just Empowered.

Yep, there is a good mix of different types of male archtypes available. There should be for the women, too.

I would argue that there is quite a good mix. Kirai is frail, believes in true love and has been put in bad situation after situation. She's had to run away from her home, has ended up in Malifaux having to sell herself (This doesn't seem unreasonable seeing as it's a Wild West Setting) Found her true love and lost him. Colette is a Performer that is very much in control. Uses every asset she has to get power, I would personally say she is very self-empowered. Perdita, head of a family, monster hunter. Sonnia, power hungry mage. In some ways Book 2 expanded into the gap from Book 1, where every almost every female character was strong, sure of herself and a good fighter.

[morella]

@Panda (well and everyone else too) -when I said before the tasteless models thing wouldn't make my top ten, I've realized in trying to answer your query that basically it all comes down to attitudes, perceived and real, both sides of the gender gap, and I guess for some people societal perceptions as well, though I've never had an issue with that because I just don't care how others view me and my choices. Different flavors of attitude and how people are treated. So, finishing up my thought for now (and this thread is moving way too quickly so my posts keep ending up in the middle of other lines of discussion):

I realize my last post may not be related to the gender issue at all, and I can't say whether it is or not, because I haven't a clue what goes on in other peoples minds. But, stemming from that, my thoughts on what LGS can do to entice more people in general into their stores is to make sure new gamers have an entry point that minimizes the fear of being the new person who doesn't know anyone or anything. So, if I were running such a business, and I wanted to get people like me to come in, I'd try and design events such as escalation matches, demos, social events, whatever, to make that happen. Around here, most of the events (not Malifaux, because that's dropped from the schedule entirely, trying to fix that as best I can) are either tournaments or open gaming. Some people are fine with showing up, waiting around to see if other people show up, and then walking up to strangers and saying "hey, can you show me how this game works?" Not me, and that may not be the case for other women, and it is likely the case for many men as well.