Nerf / Buff after print.

[Hatchethead]

While very few models are truly useless, many are simply outclassed by similar/cheaper/outright better models, or are otherwise too niche to hire without first knowing my opponent's choice of leader. While I realize this is not a priority for the designers, it remains my single biggest gripe about the game, as it currently stands.

[Mako]

*still hoping for one book with every Model in it, with or without power increase...*

That would be one massive, massive book. And out of date within a year. Although I wouldn't mind a convenient way to check every model from a factions stats, without having to buy them all first! Faction deck or something like, although no doubt that would need an extra pack every year after gencon!

[Aesop]

Although I wouldn't mind a convenient way to check every model from a factions stats, without having to buy them all first!

Totally agree! Or maybe just a pdf with all the models from the faction. Sort of like the one's here: http://www.malifaux.com/Rules.php

Those are great to load up on the ipad and have a quick reference to the models my opponent is using instead of asking him to pass me the stat card every 20 seconds (I'm a beginner and need to refresh my memory a lot, haha).

[DeleteAccount]

Though I do understand the whole not getting people utterly baffled with constant errata, would it be too much of a nuisance to sort of give it a "regularity"? The PP people try to do it in a quarterly yearly basis. You may try to do this in a reasonable time frame that you feel comfortable with and just include the changes you have been testing that you feel 100% are warranted while giving it some continuity so it doesn't feel things "get forgotten".

[PandaBearGuy]

What's wrong with just making a version 3 stats card and putting it on the online store? I don't know how cost works but I would pay a little more than replacement stats cards cost now if somebody officially goes into the (for example) Ice Golem "master picture" and types a little bold Melee Expert on it.

That way those who have the model can get what they want/need and those who never bought the model arent affected. And yes I know it may screw up the opponent for a minute but that already happens to those who only own book 1, and anyone who doesnt own every book often has to ask to see their opponents cards before the game anyway.

Edited September 11, 2012 by PandaBearGuy
moved a paragraph to a relevant thread

[decker_cky]

That would be one massive, massive book. And out of date within a year. Although I wouldn't mind a convenient way to check every model from a factions stats, without having to buy them all first! Faction deck or something like, although no doubt that would need an extra pack every year after gencon!

I think a magazine format would be ideal. A lower production value/cost/price than the current books and pretty much copy/paste (with updates) the stats for all the models available. Each year release another edition with a few edits to tighten balance (or even change something more significantly if designers are so inclined).

IMO, there's a number of options in book 1 that could really stand to have a 1-2 SS discount applied to them, as a simple adjustment which could even be done without new stat cards.

[alansmithee]

On the talk of Power Level and Buffing and Cuddling of models I think this diagram might help explain things a bit

At the moment I would consider the balance of Malifaux to be something like this.

A huge amount of the models are in the center, there are some which are a bit less or a bit more powerful but are quite close to the median, An Ice Golem might not be the best choice in the game but won't lose the game for you. Then you have a tail of models that are quite a bit more powerful than the rest. If we are going to spend time readjusting Malifaux we will try to grab those models that deviate the most from the median first. and try to pull them back in. To make the graph to look more like is this.

I would disagree with that assessment of the power level. I'd say there's way more things on the lower end of the power level than you give credit to. Honestly I think it's mostly due to the fact that more players will complain about models that are too strong than models are too weak. If you smash some dude using weaker models, you're not gonna complain. But if LCB tables you on turn 4, what will you do? Run to the boards yelling "cuddle! cuddle"

And along with that, I do agree that playtesting is difficult. One of my biggest worries though, is that it seems Wyrd is maybe going too far in the other direction. After LCB got cuddled (and fwiw I think the entirety of the cuddles were too far, but that's neither here nor there), I went and checked the old thread after alps (another time where I think it was way overboard, although they did need some tweaking) and Nekima (who's nearly useless now, and was only abusive in some limited situations previously)got cuddled , and everyone was talking about how everything was fine, balance was where it should be, etc. And some of those very same people were in the LCB thread saying how needed his cuddles were. The problem is that there will always be one or two masters who are the "best". And my fear with the recent LCB cuddles and the oddly gleeful way the people in charge of rules talk about upcoming Hamelin cuddles is that anytime a champion is "better", they'll immediately be cuddled (and most likely, turned extremely weak). Like, I'm already prepared for 1 month of "Yeah man, game's totally perfect now :)" and 1 month later "OMG cuddle Kirai/Colette they're too strong!!11!!!" after Hamelin's been wrecked.

And going back to the models that have been cuddled, it seems mostly book 2. Whereas what worries me about that is the big thing that book 2 has isn't just "power", but synergy between models. One of the biggest things about the book 2 masters is just how well they work with their intended crews. And on top of this, they often have different or more interesting mechanics. So by Cuddling more "powerful" models, you're also taking out a lot of the more interesting mechanics, tactics, etc and reducing the game's options.

[Ozz]

Alansmithee i see your points there, and i agree that perhaps the graph is showing a more uneven creep towards more powerful models than weaker models. But to that, the point is more powerful models make the game un fun, weaker models you just need to be a better player to use them effectively and win with them, so can set yourself a challenge

As for Cuddling book two models ect, it is likely to be because they were more frequently tested against each other, (all just guess work here) most frequently at least and were mostly balanced against each other, and they all have being very fast in common, compared to the majority of book 1 masters as well as what you mentioned. But the changes to the Dreamer, alps and Nekima, were all changes to the rules on their cards rather than the removal of the new and interesting rules so it does not make them less interesting (imo) just less powerful, and more fun to face as it is manageable.

Anyway, this stuff is just my thoughts and opinions rather than fact:)

[DarcXON]

Alansmithee i see your points there, and i agree that perhaps the graph is showing a more uneven creep towards more powerful models than weaker models. But to that, the point is more powerful models make the game un fun, weaker models you just need to be a better player to use them effectively and win with them, so can set yourself a challenge

This may be the case for the more casual of players, but those of us that like the tournament scene have noticed that it doesn't work that way. This is specially the case when you start practicing for a big tourney, where you start looking for the most effective way to do the strategies. In the end you have to remember that the guy across from you at the table may be just as skilled, if not more than, you. Personally I would love to be able to use Hans and Bishop (which got me into playing in the first place) in a tournament scene without knowing it's a handicap.

As for Cuddling book two models ect, it is likely to be because they were more frequently tested against each other, (all just guess work here) most frequently at least and were mostly balanced against each other, and they all have being very fast in common, compared to the majority of book 1 masters as well as what you mentioned. But the changes to the Dreamer, alps and Nekima, were all changes to the rules on their cards rather than the removal of the new and interesting rules so it does not make them less interesting (imo) just less powerful, and more fun to face as it is manageable.

I couldn't agree more.

---------- Post added at 09:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:14 PM ----------

...And along with that, I do agree that playtesting is difficult. One of my biggest worries though, is that it seems Wyrd is maybe going too far in the other direction. After LCB got cuddled (and fwiw I think the entirety of the cuddles were too far, but that's neither here nor there), I went and checked the old thread after alps (another time where I think it was way overboard, although they did need some tweaking) and Nekima (who's nearly useless now, and was only abusive in some limited situations previously)...

Alps could be easily made with Coppelius(specially since you can get eyeballs from your own crew), which meant having the ability to create Significant models with little repercussions. Dreamer had almost total board control from turn one by been allowed to attack from almost anywhere, deploying his crew almost anywhere and having little to no repercussions for it. Nekima could outbuff her crew past manageable levels without using equally worthwhile resources.

After the changes you can still find people playing these models and doing great in tournaments. You can read some of the games from most of the Podcasts and their blogs.

[alansmithee]

Alansmithee i see your points there, and i agree that perhaps the graph is showing a more uneven creep towards more powerful models than weaker models. But to that, the point is more powerful models make the game un fun, weaker models you just need to be a better player to use them effectively and win with them, so can set yourself a challenge

As for Cuddling book two models ect, it is likely to be because they were more frequently tested against each other, (all just guess work here) most frequently at least and were mostly balanced against each other, and they all have being very fast in common, compared to the majority of book 1 masters as well as what you mentioned. But the changes to the Dreamer, alps and Nekima, were all changes to the rules on their cards rather than the removal of the new and interesting rules so it does not make them less interesting (imo) just less powerful, and more fun to face as it is manageable.

Anyway, this stuff is just my thoughts and opinions rather than fact:)

"Unfun" is a term that gets so overused here that's it's essentially meaningless. Especially since what is "fun" for one individual can differ wildly from another. Instead of saying "I can't beat X, cuddle it" by saying it's "unfun" it's no longer an issue of being anything you can do about it because the very nature of the model in question causes bad things. Also, the power of everything is relative. I don't see why it's supposedly fine to have bad models there to challenge yourself (when facing average models), but having strong models is bad. Wouldn't facing strong models with merely average models also be challenging yourself? It seems like what you're saying is that average models are also unfun, since relative to bad models they're also more powerful.

And I do agree that book two masters are much faster than book 1 (and book 4 for that matter, from what I can tell). And due to the synergy with their crews, the entire crews are in general much faster. But, isn't this a situation where it would be better to add more synergy to book 1 crews, rather than cuddle book 2? Also making something that was interesting unplayable by Cuddling it is essentially the same as removing it. Nekima is about 4 points too overcosted and was never too strong to begin with (the real culprit was lilitu). Alps are roughly 3 points too high and are definitely more manageable, in that any one who fields them is essentially throwing away points (fwiw this is one of the models I'd put in the far tail end of underpowered). And the dreamer cuddles imo did take away a lot of his feel. Not being able to act again after being buried is a huge blow (which is the big thing I have issue with). All those are more fun to face, in the way it's more fun to play basketball against grade-school kids rather than college.

And I hope the tone wasn't too harsh (since I didn't intend it to be), but I think talking about "fun" is just a big red herring. If something is truly too powerful and is distorting the game environment, steps should be taken. But just because something is more powerful doesn't instantly mean it's too good. And I think talking about "unfun" helps create an environment where instead of players actually trying to get better and exhausting options before declaring something really unbalanced, it makes people hear something is "broken" and then jump on forums to complain the first time they lose to it. In the various cuddle Hamlin threads, there are people in there saying he's broken, unfun, etc who admit to never have played with or against him! And it just seems that the community here, seeing that the designers do actually listen and make changes (which is a good thing) are much more willing to just say something's broken than to actually try to innovate or think of alternate ways of winning (especially in comparison with a game like 40K where you know the designers not only don't listen but seem actively hostile to online communities, their customers, and everyone else)

---------- Post added at 10:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:07 PM ----------

Alps could be easily made with Coppelius(specially since you can get eyeballs from your own crew), which meant having the ability to create Significant models with little repercussions. Dreamer had almost total board control from turn one by been allowed to attack from almost anywhere, deploying his crew almost anywhere and having little to no repercussions for it. Nekima could outbuff her crew past manageable levels without using equally worthwhile resources.

After the changes you can still find people playing these models and doing great in tournaments. You can read some of the games from most of the Podcasts and their blogs.

People didn't complain about Coppelius making Alps, they complained about the alp bomb. And if someone wants to waste Coppelius' turn attacking their own models and wasting eyes (which he can also use to heal) I don't see the problem if they get to make a minor significant model. Dreamer I fully admit was extremely powerful and likely needed to be reigned in for the reasons you mentioned (although I DO think the degree which he was better than other masters is greatly overstated). And Nekima was used in exactly one gimmick list to buff one model which caused her to get hammered (which to me seems extremely bizarre, since

even without the cuddle she's overcosted outside of some very specific interactions).

[DarcXON]

People didn't complain about Coppelius making Alps, they complained about the alp bomb. And if someone wants to waste Coppelius' turn attacking their own models and wasting eyes (which he can also use to heal) I don't see the problem if they get to make a minor significant model. Dreamer I fully admit was extremely powerful and likely needed to be reigned in for the reasons you mentioned (although I DO think the degree which he was better than other masters is greatly overstated). And Nekima was used in exactly one gimmick list to buff one model which caused her to get hammered (which to me seems extremely bizarre, since even without the cuddle she's overcosted outside of some very specific interactions).

To get it out of the way, I believe Nekima's cost is still on point. She was great then and still is, without a nasty overbearing combo next to her.

As for the "minor" Significant model, there are so many reasons why you want to have a way to make a significant model. Just take a look at the strategies and schemes and you will find a few. Ressers will tell you how they wish they didn't have to find ways to incorporate more corpses into their crews, or hell less needs for a high crow. But I won't make too big of a post, you can look at the Coppelius card yourself.

I love that Wyrd pays attention to everything from tourneys (which they attend to sometimes) and the forums. I'm sure that they saw a lot of people do crazy things at Gencon and decided that that was not how they envisioned things. So they took a stance and fixed a problem and I for one admire that trait.

[DarcXON]

Would many of you consider a cost reduction a good enough buff?

[CRC]

No. The models' costs are very appropriate for the theme and styles of the models. Nekima should be a 13 point monster.

In some cases, a point reduction may be appropriate, but it's not as a general solution.

[Sybaris]

No. The models' costs are very appropriate for the theme and styles of the models. Nekima should be a 13 point monster.

In some cases, a point reduction may be appropriate, but it's not as a general solution.

I agree. In the case of Nekima, she should be expensive, and her presence on the table should be felt accordingly.

[DarcXON]

Hmm, I had seen a lot of posts asking for that. Was just curious as to how many felt so strongly about her.

[Ozz]

"Unfun" is a term that gets so overused here that's it's essentially meaningless. Especially since what is "fun" for one individual can differ wildly from another. Instead of saying "I can't beat X, cuddle it" by saying it's "unfun" it's no longer an issue of being anything you can do about it because the very nature of the model in question causes bad things. Also, the power of everything is relative. I don't see why it's supposedly fine to have bad models there to challenge yourself (when facing average models), but having strong models is bad. Wouldn't facing strong models with merely average models also be challenging yourself? It seems like what you're saying is that average models are also unfun, since relative to bad models they're also more powerful.

And I do agree that book two masters are much faster than book 1 (and book 4 for that matter, from what I can tell). And due to the synergy with their crews, the entire crews are in general much faster. But, isn't this a situation where it would be better to add more synergy to book 1 crews, rather than cuddle book 2? Also making something that was interesting unplayable by Cuddling it is essentially the same as removing it. Nekima is about 4 points too overcosted and was never too strong to begin with (the real culprit was lilitu). Alps are roughly 3 points too high and are definitely more manageable, in that any one who fields them is essentially throwing away points (fwiw this is one of the models I'd put in the far tail end of underpowered). And the dreamer cuddles imo did take away a lot of his feel. Not being able to act again after being buried is a huge blow (which is the big thing I have issue with). All those are more fun to face, in the way it's more fun to play basketball against grade-school kids rather than college.

And I hope the tone wasn't too harsh (since I didn't intend it to be), but I think talking about "fun" is just a big red herring. If something is truly too powerful and is distorting the game environment, steps should be taken. But just because something is more powerful doesn't instantly mean it's too good. And I think talking about "unfun" helps create an environment where instead of players actually trying to get better and exhausting options before declaring something really unbalanced, it makes people hear something is "broken" and then jump on forums to complain the first time they lose to it. In the various cuddle Hamlin threads, there are people in there saying he's broken, unfun, etc who admit to never have played with or against him! And it just seems that the community here, seeing that the designers do actually listen and make changes (which is a good thing) are much more willing to just say something's broken than to actually try to innovate or think of alternate ways of winning (especially in comparison with a game like 40K where you know the designers not only don't listen but seem actively hostile to online communities, their customers, and everyone else)

Ok first off i will start with a thank you for your response, as it is all done well, and i hope to do as well in response.

Ok, ill grant you unfun was poor phrasing on my part. But if there happens to be a model that is or is perceived as "Broken" or "overpowered" it can make the game less enjoyable for the opponent to a greater extent than a weaker model, as the less powerful models will just get left in the case.

Now my point above there is not that weaker models should not get looked at and buffed to a more appropriate level, but that the models that are more powerful, to a degree that was not intended, should imo be looked at first.

As for your point for facing strong models with average models to challenge yourself, yes that is exactly the same point i was making really just using a different power level of model(s) but there is the potential for in normal (Friendly, casual)games, where one person who loves the dreamers fluff, and the fluff of the better combo's he had available, and so is using the perceived "overpowered" crew (this was what i started with before i learnt the power levels of things, Colette and Dreamer were my first two masters) just because they liked it. But they can start to enjoy it less due to people not enjoying the games against them using that crew. Which to a small extent is what happened with me, so i do not like to use the Dreamer in my club often because of the fact everyone remembered how i used to play him, and it takes away some of both our enjoyment from the game.

With the changes to the Dreamer it has not actually affected my play style much so i still don't use him often outside of Tournaments, but as said there, you should go into the game expecting a tough game and so using stronger models is not a big deal. It is meant to be a far more competitive environment.

Adding more Synergy to the book one masters would be great, but, first off that would take basically a re write of the entire book, and most of the book one masters have no issues in competing, there are perhaps a few a little to low on the graph by Ratty, but certainly not all. Secondly, whilst i enjoy the book two masters i have got around to using, i find it is frequently the same models i use, where as with the book one masters, i tend to run a far wider selection of models for them, and i enjoy using more models for the same master. (this is a personal preference here) The final point for this that i can come up with is the amount of time and play testing it would require to get all he book one masters and minions changed to have the desired synergy would be a lot considering that it would generate very little income from the changes, and as Wyrd is a business out to make money to be able to do more stuff, they need to figure out if it is the best use of their time, or if they should just look at the models that are generating to much heat. But as a small note i will just say that it has been mentioned that Nekima is also being looked at again for potentially changing her card again to make her more worth her points.

As for the dreamer, for me not a lot changed really to my play style, he gets placed in b2b instead of 6" away.

But he is able to get buried and unburied and activate afterwards, if LCB has not been and used all the AP. It is only if buried during a companion chain that he is part of that he can not activate again from.

As i said to start my post, unfortunately that was poor phrasing on my part about saying something was unfun. And i like your comparison of More powerful, and to powerful, i think it is one that a lot of us (me included) on these forums miss the difference between.

As for your post, it was not at all to harsh, it was direct and to the point, so it has been easy to understand, and put responses to it, and i hope my post is written as well Debates are healthy

[stinkoman]

What's wrong with just making a version 3 stats card and putting it on the online store? I don't know how cost works but I would pay a little more than replacement stats cards cost now if somebody officially goes into the (for example) Ice Golem "master picture" and types a little bold Melee Expert on it.

I would go for just making him 7 SS. seems about what hes worth. and while your at it, drop the gamin by 1SS . And for the love of the miners that mine soulstones, give Ramos a larger cache!

[decker_cky]

Had another thought on making the Razorspine rattler worth 7SS. I think +1 armor makes sense because of the razorspine it has, and making constrict an (0) action makes it a lot more dangerous. Still a fragile dangerous piece, but a little less fragile, and constrict (even cast on Ca 4) means it's that extra step more dangerous.