Play your cards right? Anyone got strategies?

[CommanderSasha]

I've drawn my hand, it's round 3. I have a high card in my suit (masks), another in a different suit, the red joker, and a couple of middling cards.

I have a tot ready to grow, Lilith is in range of the enemy master, but also some minions; the Mature is also near some other minions, and the Totem has LoS and range to plenty.

ie, I have several options open to me, all valid, and enough good cards to do some, but not all of them.

How do I decide what cards to use, and when? I'm not so much asking for Lilith Tactica, or even target priority advice, but more for how to make the most of my hand. Is cheating damage worth saving cards for, or is cheating the hit better? Does it vary depending on the Cb? (For example, do I not worry about cheating Lil's high Cb, but definitely use it on the Tot's grow spell)

When do you tend to play a Red Joker from your hand? Always for damage? Save it for preventing a lethal injury?

Are there any good habits to get into(cheat your early hard hits, or save good hands for later in the round), or any personal rules-of-thumb you stick to?

Has anyone done a Tactica essay on the hand, rather than models and factions?

Thanks in advance :-D

[Cunning]

I usually keep the red joker in my hand for big hitter or master killing if at all possible but will use it to keep my master alive if forced to.

It mostly comes down to what you need to do. What your strategy and schemes are and where everything is located. Also it depends on what cards you flip. You might be prepared to cheat in the high mask to grow your tot but then flip another high mask anyway leaving you free to use the mask for transposition or something else.

I often earmark cards for certain tasks when I draw them but will alter this if I need to, usually to keep a model alive.

[nurglez]

Saw this post and thought of you, and then realized it was your post... heh.

I would boil it down to priority, which we will figure out with time (lots and lots of time I reckon).

The end result is to win, so play the mission (easy to say as I've lost the last 3 games we've played but still).

When I draw my hand, I look at the cards I will need to keep to do what I want (obey with perdita, or trigger happy/head shot with nino), and then try and figure how essential those spells will be to winning the game, or surviving long enough to try and stop you winning.

Is cheating damage worth saving cards for, or is cheating the hit better? Does it vary depending on the Cb? (For example, do I not worry about cheating Lil's high Cb, but definitely use it on the Tot's grow spell)

When do you tend to play a Red Joker from your hand? Always for damage? Save it for preventing a lethal injury?

This will probably boil down to how wounded you are, what is threatening you, what you can do to stop it etc. Saving the red joker for damage when you need a severe + your minimum to kill something is worth it, as long as you can hit high enough so you can cheat it in.

Remember that not being hit at all stops damage, so you have to weigh up which has a better chance of working. I would guess it's hard to write tactics for as every turn it will vary. With lillith having def 8 cheating in a red will stop most models hitting you at all.

[WindlordRyu]

Some guidelines I generally use are:

I get VP's or prevent my opponent from getting them, cheat.

My opponent got an annoying trigger (Dumb Luck, etc.), cheat.

Kill/Save models that can cause major damage this turn, cheat.

I can make use of a card with a value of ~7 or less, cheat.

One shot expensive stuff/masters, cheat Red Joker on the Damage flip.

And unless not cheating will significantly screw up my current game plan I tend to keep my cards until one of the above happens. Once I had the Red Joker in my hand the entire game because I never needed to use it and would rather keep it as insurance (by need I mean "cheat the Red Joker or lose the game").

Edited May 21, 2012 by WindlordRyu

[Gruesome]

the only general rules of thumb I have regarding any of the points mentioned is that I do not hold onto the red joker unless I have something very specific planned in the current turn. Other than something THIS TURN, I would rather see it flipped as many times as possible in my game and that is not gonna happen sitting in my hand.

The black joker on the other hand, stays forever in my hand the moment I get it.

Let me caveat my approach though with the following. The crews I play tend to go through most of my deck almost every turn.

[Kadeton]

I usually try to get rid of the Red Joker on something useful as soon as possible - usually to make a Cast flip all but irresistible or to get a good trigger on an attack. Of course, that completely changes if I have some way to reliably get a straight flip on damage, especially with a Master - Hamelin is pretty much the king of this. In the last tournament I played, Hamelin king-hit two Masters, both times killing them outright in a single attack, despite damage prevention, by using the Joker and getting Moderate or Severe flips.

In most other situations, I'm happier having the Red Joker come up randomly on damage flips where I can't normally cheat. The number of times I've unexpectedly killed something like a Dead Rider by flipping the Joker on a double or triple negative twist... it's always really satisfying.

The Black Joker stays in my hand for as much of the game as possible.

[rancor709]

The red joker is ultimately most useful in the deck. The reason being is it auto trumps all negative flips. Negative flips are the most common result in the game thus the red jokers ability is magnified. The black joker ultimately most useful out of the deck. Being able to retain this card mean there are only positive outcomes in the deck meaning its safer for u.

Some general hand management advice

just because you can cheat doesnt mean you should

Fishing can help you dont be afraid of negative flips if the red joker is in your deck.

The black joker in the hand is a strength.

Discarding even moderately high cards to draw additional one with the pontential to have the trigger you need is ultimately more useful.

Keep cards that allow triggers to go off.

Your milage may vary.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

I know this might sound like common sense but i see it alot. Don't cheat a 13 when a 9 or 10 will do. For example i shoot you with cb4 you have def 8 highest i can go is 18 most likely will be 16-17, so a 10 will be outvof my reach save red joker. This can mean a lot.

[col_blitzwell]

i havent read through all the post so sorry if this is repeat

when i would cheat in order of importance

to get vp

to prevent vp

to kill a very good model

to save a very important model

but i never keep the black joker in my hand because i like to know its in my deck just for fun.

I know this might sound like common sense but i see it alot. Don't cheat a 13 when a 9 or 10 will do. For example i shoot you with cb4 you have def 8 highest i can go is 18 most likely will be 16-17, so a 10 will be outvof my reach save red joker. This can mean a lot.

all ways try to put down the lowest card that you dont need

[Shadai]

The red joker is ultimately most useful in the deck. The reason being is it auto trumps all negative flips. Negative flips are the most common result in the game thus the red jokers ability is magnified. The black joker ultimately most useful out of the deck. Being able to retain this card mean there are only positive outcomes in the deck meaning its safer for u.

I'm sure you are already aware of this, but remember the red joker doesn't trump ALL negative flips.

I remember I really needed to kill a guy, but I had a negative flip to damage. That one negative screwed me over and put me through the emotional ringer.

Okay, negative flip.... so first flip RED JOKER!!!! wooo! yeah! second flip for the negative (and I think at this point I said something to the effect of "not that it matters") ........ black.... joker...... crap.....

It was a sad day.

[rancor709]

Black joker is a terrible person.

[Adran]

Its very very subjective.

There is no right answer (although there are probably lots of wrong answers)

I would review the situation you discribed as follows.

Firstly - Is my order of activation going to matter hugely?

Ie do I need something to happen early in the turn or do I need to save something for late in the turn?

If I really want one of my figures to achieve something, and am worried that they won't do it in time as eitrher they die or they will be too late to stop what ever they are after then I will focus on those activities.

Possible early activations in your scenario include

Companioning Lileth, totem and mature to allow Transpositioning fun to ruin opponents plans. If there is a great move in this, then I will go for it, and use the high mask or red joker to transposiiton if needed. If I'm going to switch the mature with an enemy model, I look at the willpower of the target, and see what I'm going to need. I might also use a soulstone rather than cheatign in a high card. This sort of play works better against crews that rely on placing, including Hoffman, Hamelin and Kirai

If I think Lileth is going to get a straight damage flip on something hard, I'll probably try and save the red joker for this (Being prepared to soulstone the attack if need be), but its probably not the case. If I can get 3-4 models with Whirling death, then

I'll aim for that.

IF I'm looking for late plays, (which is sometime is just a default for I've got no early plays but other times is because I don't want to use a model until somthing has already been) then I'll look for useful stalling plays.

If I'm doing this, then things like growing a tot will be early plays and are more likely to get cheated to suceed. But only if I haven't got a potentially vital late play (Probbaly Transposition in this case) that really needs the number of the suit.

Getting him out early has the advantage he is more liekly to be the target of attacks this turn, which I would prefer since he has already activated.

Cheating for combat

I don't have any hard and fast rules that I use, but the following guide lines might help

1 Cheat for a good reason only.

If you're already hitting, then the only good reasons to cheat the hit are For a trigger or to get to cheat in damage.

Some triggers could be well worth it, going back to your example transpositioning the mature and then ripping something in half is great (unless you are facing constructs or undead who are immune to it), but I would only do it if I knew I was goign to kill it (Minimum damage kills it, or I'll be able to to cheat the damage flip). If I needed at least a moderate, and I'm goign to be at a negative flip, I would probably not cheat it in, expect to only do weak damage on the negative damage flip and then be able to cheat it on the next attack. I'm expecting 3 attacks from my mature so it should have at least one of them that you maximise getting the rip in half.

As a general rule I don't expect to be able to cheat damage, and for important models will cheat to prevent the opponent cheating damage if I can't stop them getting the hit. So I don't save cards to cheat for damage. On the rare occasion that it happens, then if its goign to kill the model, or signifiganly inconvience it ( Cause it to reach 1 wound if its hard to kill, or make it lose a bonus, such as 3 headed) I might cheat, but typically I don't bother.

2 If you need a suit for a spell then be expected to have to cheat to cast it.

So weigh up the need to cast that spell. If you can't cheat it sucessful, plan on it failing. It might still be worth the attempt, if the model doesn't have a better action, or the spell coming off will signifigantly improve your position.

3 Try to use the red joker.

With the excepotion of its damage bonus, its just a 14 of a suit of your choice.

In our play group cheating damage is rare, so it is most likely to effect damage by being flipped. Sure, I have no control over when it will come, but unless I really need a high suit in particular for 1 great thing I won't want to keep it.

4 The Black joker is a law unto itself.

I generally hold on to it, but I know a lot of peoprl that don't like losing the space in their hand.

Personally I reckon if you are going through over 30 cards a turn consistantly its worth keeping the black joker, but less than that you're probably better discardign it. If you can discard it in the draw phase, you're probably safe from it for a second turn, so its better doign that than for a flurry if you can. But again its probably better getting a flurry off, or surviving a head shot that the extra turn of black joker freedom.