Any chances of a revisit to Nekima and her abilities?

[notmikehill]

While listening to the Cheated Fates podcast they mentioned that Nekima needs a bit of a tweak to be worth 13 stones or just reduce her stone cost to have more table time. What do you think her rules might need to be worth 13 stones? Is it better just to reduce her cost, or maybe reword nephilim heart?

[Sybaris]

I'll post what i had voiced for in the "imput" thread:

It is my belief that she should be redesigned as she's been described in the fluff; that is as a fighter first and a support character second. In fact, she didn't get to lead Nephilim because she focused on fighting while her sister did the influence game.

-Many of her abilities fit more for a "mother of monsters" (aka lilith) or BBS, and the current rules pigeon-hole her in a support position due to lack of survivability, which one cannot afford at her cost and size. She should lead from the front.

- The ability for her to lead her own crew, either as Henchwoman or master, as she is described in the text and stories.

- A stronger fighting presence (Magic or Armor piercing damage, as well as more survivability so she may actually stand a chance vs powerful fighters/masters in melee).

- Terrifying as the fluff directly implies (Sonnia's trip to Latigo), which would also prevent ridiculous situations of Nekima fleeing from Ht2 or even Ht1 models. Or just make her Lifer.

- If need be, remove or tone down some of the "nurturing mother" abilities.

[Q'iq'el]

I have no problem with her being support, as long as it would be combat support.

The idea is that by taking a model that expensive, you change how entire crew works, rather than just add another good fighter to the crew (Nephilim have plenty of those). That she doesn't achieve at all.

I'm personally against her becoming Henchman, but that's just me. I like the idea she is so brawly and bloodthirsty she can't really stop to lead anything... she just charges in and other follows. A Nephilim-Orc hybrid if you want.

There are multiple problems with her current powers:

First of all, giving speed bump to Tots and making Young fight comparably or better than Matures, while doing nothing for Lilitu, Lelu, Tuco and Matures (arguably the mainstay of Nephilim crews these days) is hardly a worthwhile combat support. If anything, it is objective-grab support, something which isn't fluffy for her at all, as Sybaris had pointed out above.

The Grow mechanic isn't that bad as it can tie with the frontline combat abilities. Nephilim join the melee and start growing up rapidly, if she is around. The problem is, this is the only thing she does well right now. For 13 points. And that does nothing for Mature Nephilims and Lelus - combat models you're likely to base your offensive on by turn 3 (or things are going wrong already). In fact dedicated Growth crews (which I dislike and don't play), compete all the growing in turn 1, so that's how long her abilities influence the game (granted, you can see her as an enabler for such a tactic, but then she is a very expensive one).

If there was any way for her to support or work with Waldgeist as well, she'd fit into Lilith crews even better. The recent cuddles to her synergy with Pandora seem to suggest Lilith's Brood is where she's intended to stay (perhaps also in Nephilim+Zoraida lists, but these aren't as popular as they used to be these days).

Either way you can easily find past threads on Nekima, where the problems are discussed in detail. There are three major areas, where she fails miserably.

- Survivability - very big model which is hard to hide, can be hit by any ranged attack easily and has defensive stats so low she gets almost immediately paralyzed or otherwise removed from combat. Her wound count isn't much of a protection, when she cannot stop these attacks coming in.

- Mobility - while her mobility looks good on paper, she is also a 50mm based model. That means she has to land her huge base somewhere with every walk action she takes (remember you cannot bunch up movements and move her full movement range in one action) - this forces her to take round-about routes which makes her fall behind Young and Tots. Her long reach makes up for that a bit, but only where the terrain is scarce. Mature Nephilims share that same issue with her, but they can do Diving Attacks, while for some unfathomable reason she can't. Even with Diving Attacks she'd still be very hard to position right for a good charge, without getting singled out and killed beforehand.

- Triggers - basically all her triggers are horrible and useless. The best one is Bloody Fate, which she already shares with Lilith. All her Triggers require her to get in combat (which is already too hard for her) and the push effects are very limited and sub-par utility-wise. Pushing enemy models towards your own helps very little, if it always is Nekima who falls behind other Nephilim, not the other way around. Pushing opponent into terrain is situational and the way the game rules work, pushing the opponent so that Nekima is out of its range does very little to help her survivability (being engaged in melee doesn't stop one from charging - only the models that already have opponent in their own melee range cannot charge that opponent.).

In other words, Nekima needs either to go back to affecting all Nephilim models with her buffs (possibly too strong when she joins crews other than Lilith), or she needs to do something entirely different.

Edited April 14, 2012 by Q'iq'el

[EnternalVoid]

I do not have any of the books to read the fluff any further then what I had read before about her but I do have a question.

100 and some years ago is when Lilith bests per say Nekima for leadership. If I remember right it was during the while ousting of the last settlement of people from the Breach. Back then Lilith beat her at the whole political game while Nekima was to fighty and blood thirsty to notice Lilith's actions. I believe it was at that point 100 years ago where Lilith forced Nekima to kneel or at least overturned her effectively. I would think that in 100 years, having learned from her mistake, Nekima might have improved her standing with their people rather than merely hid in a hole. Her support abilities could well have developed in this time. Of course I have not gotten to see much of Nekima fluff if there is anything beyond the Lilith assuming control part.

Anyhow to the model itself, the main thing I have heard is her defensive abilities, or lack of in some means. To many have complained to me that Von Shill or someone can use Soul Stone on her and kill her fast.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I tend to find that especially when you get into the 9 and 10 SS cost minions it is very hard to balance them correctly. For some reason the more expensive a model is the more it seems to shift to an extreme end of the spectrum either *perceived* OP, or *perceived* UP. Nekima really falls into that trap.

For an expensive model you really want them to have a major impact on the game. At 13 SS you'd want the model to have as much impact as say 3 Rotten Belles, or 4 Terror Tots, but at the same time you don't want to easily lose that investment. If that massive sway over the game is easy to kill... they swing to the *perceived* Underpowered end of the spectrum. If the model is extremely difficult to remove the swing goes the other way.

Frankly, although I was very surprised that in order to fix the sheer insanity of the FILTH list they chose to do it via Nekima instead of doing it via Double take, I think it very much gives the developers more freedom in the design of future Nephilim, as they won't have to constantly go "Ok if we give the model this ability does it get OP or broken via Nekima?"

Honestly, I'm not certain they are going to revisit any models which are perceived underpowered. The game has many, many underpowered models, and underpowered models don't break the game. Much as I would love to see them possibly revisit models like Nekima, Molly, the Malifaux Child, and others I doubt that will happen until Malifaux 2nd edition rolls around, if it ever does.

[Q'iq'el]

100 and some years ago is when Lilith bests per say Nekima for leadership. If I remember right it was during the while ousting of the last settlement of people from the Breach. Back then Lilith beat her at the whole political game while Nekima was to fighty and blood thirsty to notice Lilith's actions. I believe it was at that point 100 years ago where Lilith forced Nekima to kneel or at least overturned her effectively. I would think that in 100 years, having learned from her mistake, Nekima might have improved her standing with their people rather than merely hid in a hole. Her support abilities could well have developed in this time. Of course I have not gotten to see much of Nekima fluff if there is anything beyond the Lilith assuming control part.

Lilith & Nekima stories mirror Yoritomo & Yos(h)itsune stories in Japanese history, myth and legend and I wouldn't be surprised if they were inspiried by it. Yos(h)itsune was the genius leader and a war hero, but Yoritomo was the one handing out war trophies, riches, land and positions in the new military government, from the safety of his capital, Kamakura. Once the war with Heike was over, not one clan stood or had any desire to stand on the Yos(h)itsune's side. His brother accused him of treason, chased all over Japan and finally executed.

Nekima is not exactly someone with a standing anymore. She's a leader of a ragtag Nephilim coven, who still has to bow to Lilith whenever her sister orders her to. That's why I think she's unfit for a Henchman, but I think she should be an exceptional warrior. Possibly, for that price, the best melee fighter minion in Malifaux.

@Fetid Strumpet

It's hard to argue the models shouldn't be treated evenly, but I think the price, time, effort and position of the model in the fluff - all should be taken into consideration. Just like 4 Riders, Nekima isn't your regular Minion - she is one of the players in Malifaux fluff and a minion which is supposed to enable new play styles for Lilith - one of the most limited masters of the Book 1, when it comes to minion selection and play style options. I'm pretty sure that was the intention anyway.

If there is one minion they should revisit, it is Nekima. And it's not because she is "underpowered" (actually she isn't - you can use her with some success in Growth lists and what she does is pretty powerful). It's because she does nothing for Lilith and very little for the entire game. It's because you take her, spend her in the turn 1 and you can leave her behind guarding an objective for the rest of the game. It's boring, unimaginative and very unintended as far as I can tell. And all that for a model which was supposed to be special, which was tough to build, tougher to paint and which was priced prime, just like the Riders.

The Riders, all 4 of them, see their table time constantly. Some of them are among the best minions in the game. Nekima and Storm are two models that do need to be in the same place. Nekima needs a total rewrite of her rules, while Storm needs a bit of a buff, from what I've heard (haven't played with or against so no first hand experience here).

Edited April 14, 2012 by Q'iq'el

[Fetid Strumpet]

Q I wasn't arguing that models shouldn't be treated equally. My point was I didn't think we would see a revisit of Nekima any time soon. I think it would be interesting if they did relook at Nekima, but my point was I doubt we will see such, as I've never seen a game company, outside of new editions, ever go back and change models that are not either creating bad experiences for players, breaking the mechanics of the game in an unexpected way, or offering too much power for cost.

I pretty much feel the same way you do about Nekima but for Molly. I could go through the reasons but that is not the topic of this thread. The reason I mention it is that there are also other models that I could think of that also occupy a similar position to Nekima. In that instance I would argue that aside from the fact that Nekima is a $30ish dollar kit, she doesn't occupy an especially unique or special place different from other models in the game.

With that said if Wyrd does decide to relook at a very good portion of all of those models, including Nekima, it would be a very interesting and unexpected step.

[Q'iq'el]

@Fetid Strumpet

Yup, it was me trying to argue Nekima should be treated better than some other models due to the disparity between her status and her level of disrepair.

Frankly, I don't care what other companies do or not do about obsolete or underperforming models. Wyrd has a very good level of customer service over all and I can see them fixing the models they've break with their cuddles. I'm not sure if you remember how it went with Sorrows, which got cuddled first and then received all new link which worked properly and made the crew working as it should again - clearly there are precedences for it and IMO Nekima deserves similar treatment.

As for Molly, she doesn't even come close. I play her, I understand crews led by her are somewhat weak, but that is a model selection issue first and foremost. As a model changing how the crews taking her play, she does the job well enough. The fact her power level may be on the lower end of the scale is not a problem - she works, she does things she's designed to do and you can build a plan around fielding Molly and have a great game out of it.

If you build a plan around taking Nekima, you'll be using her in turn 1 and then she'll be sitting idle (or dead) through the remaining 5~6 turns. This is what we're talking about in this thread - I feel - not the relative power level (which is still pretty solid for Growth lists with Nekima), but the playability of the model. Molly has tons upon tons of playability. Nekima is just boring.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Difference of opinion then, I know, totally shocking that we disagree once again. I know someone who finds Nekima much more interesting to play than you do, and, although I disagree with him, finds Nekima to be one of the more fun and powerful NB minions. And while I don't personally feel Nekima is in anyway more deserving of a second look than any other model it would be interesting if Wyrd did look at her, and some of the other minions models that currently do not fit in the way they probably should.

If they were to re look at her I think it would be interesting to see her more as a fragile but extremely deadly combat model. Perhaps with the ability to give similar bloodlust abilities to her Nephilim. Perhaps giving Auto-Flay to all Nephilim in her crew at the cost of a permanent -2 Def, or giving all Nephilim in her crew Teddy's ability to charge as a 1 action, but they must charge the closest model. Although if we were going to be true to fluff she probably shouldn't be allowed to be taken in a Lilith crew.

[Q'iq'el]

Fragility does not go in pair with Ht 4 and 50mm base. It simply doesn't work. The way she is she already is far far more fragile than Nicodem, who with the same wound count and similar Df/Wp stats can still protect himself better.

IMO what she needs, at the very least, is a buff to stats. She simply should have better stats than a mature Nephilim for these 3 SS. If they need to cut the budget somewhere, to make space for Df6 and Wp6 or something like that, please take away these useless triggers and the multi-suit weapon for getting them off. A good old Cb :masks and Bloody Fate for the trigger will work well enough.

If they decide to make her more fragile, she'll need some serious defensive abilities of her own, because she isn't making it to the turn 3 already and it would only get worse if she was a real threat.

And I'm sure people have fun with Nekima. She can work pretty well in some circumstances (when the terrain doesn't make her the only model the opponent can shoot for example... and doesn't mess up her movement). And if you are into Growth lists, she's pretty awesome. Lack of power has never been an issue.

She just isn't the minion the fluff advertises. It is the only minion, really, I have a problem with - if you've bought it thinking you'll get what the Book 2 described, she's biting the foam in your carrying case right now. If you are like me and trying to make her work, you're simply not having fun with the games you bring her in, because 1/3 of the crew is immediately blown away... and Nephilim can't raise it back.

[Sybaris]

I still see her as a potential henchman, at the very least like Molly is. Seamus can boss Molly in the same way (if not worse)than Lilith can control Nekima. Even Zoraida said that Lilith's sister cannot easily be controlled.

Also, the fluff mentions she leads a following of warriors, which i would guess is at least enough for a scrap in Malifaux.

Other than that, i agree with Q'iq'el. I don't want to see her doing a back seat coach role like a mixture of Lilith and a Black Blood Shaman's job. I want to see her fighting in the thick of it, just like she does in the fluff. Atm she is a glass cannon, especially if you take soulstones into account. A 13ss glass cannon who buffs from behind the lines.

While other models need help, or are less than desireable, Nekima is a very visible poster girl for the Nephilim (even has her full page art, a model box), and she represents (visually) the subfaction much better than Lilith does. She also gains notoriety for being the highest costed minion of the game on its own.

Lastly, Nephilim feel much like a "special force" within the Neverborn faction. It's just that they existed before the concept was fleshed out. With that regard, Nekima would definitely fit as the dedicated Henchmen for that special force.

Edited April 15, 2012 by Sybaris

[NBmaster]

While I dont have any real suggestions aboutwhat should be done I share the same sentiments that most on thos post do. Nekima was my first boxed model I was so extatic about owning and playing with her, but have left her on my painting table since the changes were made, about 2 months after I bought her. If changes arnt going to be made to her maybe a model exchange is in order as I dont usually buy $35 paperwieghts, which is what she has become. I say this in jest, but also to show how bumbed out I have been since the great cuddlefing of 2011. Any way my 2 cents.