Malifaux By The Numbers

[RotatingPanda]

rancor709: You read my mind! That's what's next on the chopping block! Love the podcast, btw...kind of a fan-boy for it actually.

[rancor709]

Thanks Panda its why we do the show we love the game thanks for listening and please tell your friends.

[RotatingPanda]

Anyone willing to give feedback: does the table (under SS Costs) make it more readable? Would it be worth changing everything to the table format?

[rancor709]

Fan of the table format

[RotatingPanda]

You're right, Rancor. The tables are a big improvement. Tidier, easier to read and easier for me to edit when I get my copy of Twisting Fates back and can add Avatars.

[Dustcrusher]

RANGED COMBAT

[table=width: 650, class: outer_border]

[tr]

[td]Category[/td]

[td]Average[/td]

[td]Highest[/td]

[td]Lowest[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Henchmen[/td]

[td]6[/td]

[td]6 (Kaeris, Von Schill, Ophelia)[/td]

[td]6 (Kaeris, Von Schill, Ophelia)[/td]

[/tr]

[/table]

I don't have my books with me- is this actually correct (i.e. no other henchmen have a ranged attack)?

Also, it's looking great, and I suspect this is going to be even more interesting once Twisting Fates is back in your hands (tell your friend to hurry up and return your copy- we're all waiting! *wink* )

[Patchwork]

The tables are a great change!

Also, under Soulstone cost > Totem > Lowest, you may want to add Grave Spirit, as it also only costs 1.

[Lucidicide]

This is a bit nit-picky, but Hollow Waifs are not actually Totems. You might want to count them as such for the purposes of this analysis (because they obviously are totems in function), but if so, you might just want to add a note that you are counting them as totems even though they aren't. Just for the sake of accuracy.

[RotatingPanda]

Dustcrusher: Lucius has no ranged attack, arguably, because of his Hidden Sniper spell; Molly has no attacks listed at all, just spells; Collodi, like many Neverborn, has no way of inflicting damage at range. But with his speed, why would he need it?

Lucidicide, Patchwork: Made the changes you suggested.

[Korrosion]

Nitpick as requested:

Lilith is cast 5 which is tied for the lowest but she's not listed there.

/nitpick

You said that you were going to compare the average 4ss model stats to the average 5ss model stats to the average 6ss model stats... Would it be relatively easy to also compare the average guild 4ss model to the average resser 4ss model?

[RotatingPanda]

Fixed the Lilith Cast.

Yeah, I'm going to do tables on averages per SS and Faction, but not highest and lowest because that just becomes a ridiculous amount of busy work.

[Korrosion]

I'm really curious to see what my 4 or 5 ss worth of model buys me in ressers vs neverborn. Malifaux is supposed to be balanced faction to faction so in theory the average minions should be pretty close to the same stats right?

And thanks for doing all this math. Its way more then I have the patience for.

[Q'iq'el]

I'm really curious to see what my 4 or 5 ss worth of model buys me in ressers vs neverborn. Malifaux is supposed to be balanced faction to faction so in theory the average minions should be pretty close to the same stats right?

You are speaking about model-2-model balance. Faction-2-faction balance means there is some value attached to the synergies and special rules faction has, which may not show at all in a model-by-model comparison.

It is especially true in case of Rezzers.

Guild/Neverborn and some of the Outcasts and Arcanists should probably end up close enough - even though these factions have multiple unique interactions, they share the basic hire-then-fight model, where SS cost is directly tied to the minion's power level.

Rezzers on the other hand can summon their crews. They also field very highly specialized Minions - you get very expensive and powerful abilities, like Flurry, on relatively cheap models with solid stats... and you get to summon something else should your minion be no longer needed (having killed it yourself or doing suicide attack on the opponent).

That affects how the models are priced and this probably is tied up to factors other than just the average of stats/SS cost.

[RotatingPanda]

Q'iq'el is totally right. These tables were never meant to compare models stat-to-stat as that is far from the real picture. If you were to rely on the numbers alone, Collodi would be the slowest model in the game...

While you can compare the numbers, do it for curiosity's sake, nothing more.

[Fetid Strumpet]

You think flurry is a powerful ability? Also if you don't mind me asking, exactly which models are you thinking of that are relatively cheap and have solid stats? Almost all Resser models have below average Walk, Wp, Df, and Cb.

[Q'iq'el]

Fetid Strumpet, your bias is well known to us. Muahahaha.

Seriously though, a well executed flurry can dispatch a master in one turn, even if you burn SS to defend (and being forced to burn SS, cheat or both 3 times in a row does put most masters at disadvantage with immediate effect).

To compare it directly with Outslaught would be a bit of a stretch, I admit it freely, but consider how a Master will hardly ever execute 3 attacks in a row with the trigger and it requires saving up right cards. Here you get it practically guaranteed and from a minion!

From the receiving end point of view, one of the first hard and fast rules a melee master's player learns is not to end your activation in melee range of a model with Flurry. It simply is asking to get killed in one go. I'm sure this respect for the ability is shared by Lilith, Lady J and Viks players, and even the Dreamer perhaps, though LCB has the easiest time avoiding such counter strikes

As to the stats. Sure. That is what "specialist" means. A Punk Zombie may have low to average stats across the board, but it comes with Cb6, easily available buffs to Cb and paired weapons for 5SS. In comparison the first Nephilim minion with comparable offensive abilities (and we are speaking about a melee oriented crew here) is Lelu for 2 SS more. Before that there was only the Mature.

If you want Lure or Seduction in other factions, you also end up paying more than 4 or 5 SS. Sure, you get better stats for higher price, but you don't get a chance to switch the minion in play or to achieve the same levels of redundancy.

Now whether that translates to advantage or disadvantage in the game is a completely different issue. Right now the community seems to believe the speed is everything and speed typically comes cheap for most factions (3-4ss models), so Rezzers are forced to play different game (ESP. that they are inherently slow). But this is not a problem of individual models being wrongly priced, but rather of the faction getting the wrong tools. (Personally I'm not convinced though: Between Necropunks, Dogs, Horrors and Crooligans there seems to be a healthy choice of fast models).

Edited April 20, 2012 by Q'iq'el

[Fetid Strumpet]

Q, there are only 2 models that have flurry that are remotely dangerous in the Resser line. Punk Zombies, and Bete Noir, and flurry isn't what makes them dangerous, their paired weapons, high dmg lines, and bete's depraved tactics do. Both should really have Melee expert, given the way the game has developed. I could see the argument for not giving it to bete, but punk zombies definitely should have it.

[Cunning]

I wouldn't worry too much if I left Lilith near something with flurry.

With her def trigger and high defense she's pretty hard to hit especially with something that can't use soulstones.

[Q'iq'el]

I love how easily you dismiss it. It's where your bias really shows up. And mind you, I play Rezzers as much as my other factions and have considerably bigger collection of undead than others, and I still think they are nowhere as weak as you tend to be making them.

First of all it's the combination. A paired weapon attack from any minion means nothing to a melee oriented master. If it happens to be really strong you SS it. And even if you can't, you still can take 1~2 such attacks before problems start... and do a Healing flip afterwards. Sure, not always, but generally.

When attacks come from Flurry, you take 3 and you may simply die if you don't SS these attacks. If it is a paired weapon, SS may not help. So you start Cheating and SSing the attacks from the strike 1. And because it is Melee, you have to cheat as high as you can or SS from the get go, because the attacker always has a chance to cheat above you. Very nasty resource drain.

Among expensive and non-summonable models, Bête and Dead Rider both get Flurry.

Among cheap minions, you get Flurry on Sybelle for 6SS and Necropunks for 3SS. While not as powerful as Punks, they do sit at quite good (for a 3SS model) Cb of 5 with decent trigger and can cause 9 damage with good cards - basically better than you can expect from Terror Tots, for example. Neither are combat models, perhaps, but Terror Tots won't get buffed to Cb of 7 either and Rezzed as Punk Zombie or Flesh Construct once they die.

And we're not here to discuss Rezzers once more (we don't have to do it wherever someone suggests Rezzers may have something good). I've simply pointed out, model by model comparison won't show parity, if the cost is supposed to reflect the value of the minion within given faction.

---------- Post added at 10:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:21 PM ----------

I wouldn't worry too much if I left Lilith near something with flurry.

With her def trigger and high defense she's pretty hard to hit especially with something that can't use soulstones.

You'd think, wouldn't you. Practice shows otherwise.

Df trigger depends on cards available.

Ability to stop Flurry from causing enough damage to kill her (2 strikes are typically enough from Punk Zombies, as she's unlikely to sit at full health after several turns of combat) depends on availability of soulstones and if she has to use 1 or 2, that hurts a lot. And then try to disengage the Punk - it isn't easy at all (kill it, and it may be up and charging you again before your next activation, try to leave, and you have Cb7~9 disengaging strike with paired weapon to beat. I tend to assume the worst, but of course the other side may lack cards to do that to. The problem is, you can't know that, so why risk it?). I don't use Nurses much since book 2, but when I used them, it was ~Cb10 paired with a solid chance of ++ on damage when I saw opportunity for a Master kill. She can't defend from that either, even if her Df Trigger procs.

Sure, I'm not claiming any minion with Flurry can kill her, but she is the best master as far as direct combat Defensive abilities go and for other masters situation is even more dire. If a 3SS minion can still dispatch 5~7SS minion, that makes Flurry pretty amazing ability as well.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Q'iq'el

[Lucidicide]

Just a couple of notes for the above discussion: Punk Zombies are Cb 7. Lilith's Df Trigger auto has a suit.

[Cunning]

I wouldn't be too worried if Lilith was left near a single model with flurry. Okay I may burn a few resources but I'd be fairly confident she'd survive. 2 or more would start to be an issue.

Flurry is really just a lesser version of melee expert. One of the main issues is that unless the model has nimble,fast or a 0ap movement action it has to start in melee range of it's target. Plus it may end up wasting one or even 2 attacks if it kills the target. Melee expert allows you to move before and after attacking and lets you attack different targets.

Not to mention you dont need to burn a card to do it.

[Lucidicide]

I wouldn't be too worried if Lilith was left near a single model with flurry. Okay I may burn a few resources but I'd be fairly confident she'd survive. 2 or more would start to be an issue.

I agree.

Flurry is scary. I would not want to leave Lilith next to a model with it, but I wouldn't expect much (if anything) to get through. I'll make a slight exception for Bolstered Cb9 Paired Punk Zombies, as even if her Df goes to 10, it's still much more likely something will get through.

Flurry is really just a lesser version of melee expert. One of the main issues is that unless the model has nimble,fast or a 0ap movement action it has to start in melee range of it's target. Plus it may end up wasting one or even 2 attacks if it kills the target. Melee expert allows you to move before and after attacking and lets you attack different targets.

Not to mention you dont need to burn a card to do it.

I don't think anyone would dispute that (+1) Melee Expert is better than (2) Flurry. There is pretty much no way to logically disagree.

That said, it's also a mistake to discount how powerful Flurry is. Is Melee Expert better? Yes. Is Flurry good? Yes.

[Q'iq'el]

Flurry is really just a lesser version of melee expert.

Nobody ever argued otherwise. But you have a 5SS or 3SS model with flurry, bunched with others, and that means it will counter strike if you charge the group. Sure, it won't be able to move, but you have to consider it happening (and Rezzers generally like to bunch up, unless you bring heavy AoE). It is very nasty on Punk Zombies due to the punch they pack and it is extremely cruel on Bête Noire, because she doesn't have to move to get you (and just may be Fast). The opponent has to consider how to bite that now.

So yes, you can call it worse melee expert, or you can cal it el-cheapo Onslaught, but it does come on multiple cheap models within the faction and won't show up in mere stat comparison, which was the point here.

[RotatingPanda]

I know it's taken forever but I finally added Avatars! I added the 36 new minions to my spreadsheet as well but they didn't have any impact on the averages. I'll get around to adding them if they have highs or lows later and I'll update the faction summaries. Wanted to get those avatars out of the way though

[Forar]

Very interesting reading.

Obviously the triggers, tricks and less easily compared parts of each model makes it more of an idle curiosity, but it is neat to see it all lined up in an easy to read format.

Thank you for this.