d_mun Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 (edited) Looking over the strategies and trying to figure out which Masters & Minions will excel, be sub-optimal and suck out loud. edit: General Assumptions: Just some basic assumptions I'm going to make as I go through. 1. Going for the 8-0 victory 2. Pick crew + masters after you know the strategy. Shared Treasure Hunt Shared Destroy the Evidence Shared Contain Power 2vp For killing all the opponent's leaders +2 if your Master kills their master McMorning: Our resident beatstick. He has the movement tricks with Scalpel Slinging, a major debuff with the Transplant and a Trigger that can get an extra attack. A lot of damage potential along with a high cache. He also has a 0 ability that is an unavoidable damage flip. He has a low Df and Wp so he probably won't survive any counter attack or movement mistakes. edit: suggestion by CalmDown Since he's going to be carving up the enemy Master anyway you might as well take his personal scheme. Nicodem: Very survivable with MZ but his personal source of damage is Decay. A good spell but fairly short range so you'll probably have to spend an AP moving up. Probably better at setting up the Master for the crew to do the work. Seamus: An assassination strategy for Seamus will be terrify the opponent's master. The problem with that is going to all the masters with high wp, construct, undead and a few of the Avatars. Not very reliable unless you know for sure what your opponent is bringing. Also his Excessive Bleeding can make the enemy master count as dead if they fail the WP->12 duel. Kirai: No offensive capabilities worth mentioning. Move along. Molly: She can lead a crew, but she's another one that will let her crew. Originally you could get 4 and give your opponent 2vp with Philosophy of uncertainty but still a mediocre trade. Kirai, Avatar of Vengence: Slow moving but she has a couple zero actions to help her get into melee. Her other abilities can get her 5 damage pretty reliably, but without melee master or fast she's probably going to have to finish what her spirits start. McMorning, Avatar of Athanasia: No boost to Df of Wp makes him still easy to hit. He gets armor +1 next to Simulacrum 29 but most of his abilities are geared towards boosting up Simulacrum 29. Nicodem, Avatar of Decay: The same offensive abilities as before but more survivable then before due to more Mindless Zombies on the table. In theory it could make it easier to chop down your opponents master but I think most opponents would see what is happening and settle for the +2vp before you can get the +4. Seamus, Avatar of Dread: More of what regular Seamus does, but better. The only model that is immune to his Terror now is the Avatar version of Chompy. He's lost the movement abilities but can force multiple terror tests a turn. His damage line has gone up as well. Summary: For this strategy I really like McMorning the most because he can reliably get the job done himself. A close 2nd is going to be the Avatar of Dread due to better terrifying and damage. Minions of note: Bete Noir - Can nab you +2vp quickly if your opponent is out of cards & Soulstones but I'd rather go for the +4. Crooked Men - Shaft Markers can make it dangerous for the opponent to engage your master directly and the blasts from Cave In can thin out their body guards. Canine Remains - Good to use in conjunction with melee masters as the -2 Df will let you save your bigger cards for cheating the damage flip. Also Rabies will let Masters like Seamus get their terror off easier. And they still retain their general utility. Necropunks - Keep close to your master to give them Slow, meaning less melee attacks against your Master. Also it's decent, not great, defense against LCB taking you out turn one. Rotten Belles - Draw out their Master or Lure away the body guard so your Master can do what they need to. Shikome - Prey whatever your opponent is using as body guard to clear the way. Von Schill - Very good at what he does, he can whittle the enemy Master down quite nicely. Just need to be careful he doesn't do it to well and get the kill himself. Jack Daw - With proper placing you could get your enemy in his no cheating/Soulstone aura, but it would be hard to keep both the enemy master within 6", your Master outside of that but within melee range of the enemy Master. At the beginning of the game probably keep him 7-8 inches to the left or right of Jack and make sure he moves forward. Crooligan - Situational, provides cover for your Master. Really shines against the spell slingers and shooters. Only take if you pick Masters before you pick the rest of the crew. Dead Doxy - Seduction puts your opponent at --Resist, but it is short range and requires a tome. However, the suit isn't always something you need so saving it for her might workout well. Jaakuna Ubum - Like an uber-Rotten Belle drawing in the Master, it is harder to cast requiring an 8+ that would probably be more useful in attacking the enemy Master. C&C welcome, I'll edit any information in as it comes up and add the other strategies. Edited March 19, 2012 by d_mun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 Master and minion choice very much depends on your opponent's faction, your schemes, and also the terrain too, so you're missing pieces of the puzzle here. But we can still generalise based on strat. Some of what I say is based on Shared Contain Power; you can ignore that if the scheme is not shared of course, but remember that if you're doing CP you're often exposing your master if going for 4 VP and that is always a consideration. McMourning has the movement and the damage output to catch an enemy master reliably. Add into this that you can run his Master specific scheme (normally two attacks + a dissection for the kill) along with contain power and you get a very good focus on VP (your opponent will know it's coming, but it isnt easy to avoid McMourning). I'd say McMourning is your best option for Contain Power (as he is with most strats, tbh) Seamus is very poor offensively and in general (see other threads on Seamus). With his Avatar though, he is a viable option; you know your opponent has to come to you for VP, so you can afford to sit around and avatar in safety. He also becomes tough to kill in melee once he avatars. As ever though, his low ss cache is a problem; in contain power, you need 8 SS no question for both defense and killing the enemy master, so you're basically 6ss down every game, 8 with the avatar. Seamus is an option for sure, but not one I'd take often or even at all personally. Nicodem will struggle against opposing melee masters as he has no good offense to speak of that isnt ranged and is easy to pin in melee thanks to his low Wk. Also his offense is weak vs masters, being a spell, as your opponent has the advantage of being able to stone after you (especially if you didnt stone), or you have to stone before him and leave him the option of not stoning, giving him control over the flow of stone usage. I dont like this. It's hard to score 4vp with Nico. At the same time he is very easy to catch and very easy to kill, so it makes your opponent killing him easy. I'd avoid Nico for Contain Power wherever possible. Molly... well, let's just not even waste our time talking about Molly Kirai is, as usual, in a class of her own. I've completed CP with her more than once for 4VP but it is not easy; it normally involves Shikome'ing something to low Wd and then Into the Spirit World with Kirai and some stoned melee attacks (maybe or maybe not after a Chill of Death). Generally I'd be happy with taking 2 good schemes and doing CP for 2 points with her and trying for a 6-x win; that's often easier than going for full 4 from CP with other Rezzer masters, as Kirai is in such a league of her own. I'd say she's an option if you're considering the full faction but by no means the best at it (contrary to most schemes where she *is* the best at it) because denying yourself 2VP from the get-go can sometimes be bad and other choices could be better, despite the generally reduced power level. I'm not gonna go through all of the minions, because that is far too dependant on everything else going on to be relevant really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 Shared Contain Power = Draw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_mun Posted March 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Shared Contain Power = Draw. Why is it an auto draw for you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy in Suit Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Why is it an auto draw for you? I'm curious as well. Unless you play a total grab-ass ETC WH Fantasy patty cake style, after 6+ turns of slingin' it, something is going to die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Because the person that rushes their master forward is the one at risk of losing him most. It's a bit like how Shared Slaughter is best played by killing one model without losing one yourself, then hiding away. Certainly every time I've seen it come up in tournaments, there is usually only one table that doesn't end 4-4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy in Suit Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Do you guys bump into your time limits, or do you usually finish all 6-7 turns? That strategy never seems to work over here, as eventually they WILL get to you - especially if they are mobile. You see 'hiding away' and I just see clumped up in a corner waiting to die... Then again most crews I play regularly are pretty mobile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Differs for different people. As a Gremlin player, my turns generally take longer because I tend to recycle models to out activate, as well as do a lot of mass movement with things like Sooey! and specific measurement/placings to avoid Stampede going wrong combined with plenty of extra card flips from 3 actions and low duel totals giving minus flips. Tournament games usually end at around turn 6 for me. Really it's hard to say anything on it without an open answer of things like "Can't hide form Chompy!" or "I'm coming to you anyway"; but essentially it boils down to the art of war; if the enemy has to play to you, then you have the advantage. Against the majority of masters knowing they must come to you means they are spending activations advancing, or not specifically engaging; which lets you react. Masters have use soulstones, so by and large you will find that it is the master vs master combat that decides the engagements in contain power (even if I would be using Ophelia for the hammer) In Slaughter, if I take your model, before you take mine, you now have to play to me, and Malifaux is a dense terrain game. There is exceptions, and no real sure results, but the majority of the match ups have this as the case; even if Collodi and The Dreamer don't agree, or it turns into a Pigapult vs Austringer face off. In practice in my locals and in tournaments, I see Contain Power get a lot of draws as neither player over exposes their master, or fights for the advantage. Or just be a stomp by the stronger player vs a newer at local games, usually based on experience or the newer player thinking the way to go is to rush everything at the master, while they are whittled down by the enemy crew. Slaughter is much the same; if one person sees it as RUSH IN AND KILL, they will be the ones losing more soulstones of models. but I have 2ss models that can do 12 damage ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_mun Posted March 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) Shared Treasure Hunt: So there's a 30mm token in the middle of the table. It takes a (1)interact action to pick it up, it reduces your movement to 4" and you move other then taking a walk action you drop the token. This will be less master specific and trying to find the combos to get there, try to pick it up and get moving back to your deployment zone on turn one. Things to Remember 1)+2vp if a significant model hold it OR it's in your deployment zone. +4vp if both are true. 2) If it's placed the exact center you only have to move 11.5" to get into base to base from the front of our deployment zone. 3) You can pick it up if you are engaged in melee. Nicodem - Rigor Mortis on the the enemy model with the counter. Wow, he casts that spell a lot. Canine Remain Rush - Wk of 6 means that you can get them up there first turn. Add in Sebastian to companion them and you get get a lot of dogs there turn one. Add McTavish to the list so he can make them do a (1) Action to pick it up or walk. Belle Alpha Strike edit: Thank you Fetid Strumpet & Soundwave for corrections and suggestions -The Red Chapel Gang is fast but somewhat unreliable. it requires Sybelle so the Rotten Belles can companion. A Belle/Sybelle walks 12" up to treasure. Belle 2 walks up 6", lures Dead Doxy. Dead Doxy (0)'s to model on the counter, picks up treasure. Alternatively you can Call Belle and get a Rotten Belle further up. You opponent will get their own shot at picking it up, so you may want to keep an extra Belle handy to get them to drop it. Belles - Just a good minion in here with Lure. The movement is a push so they're dropping the token or pulling the minion away so you can walk away. Necopunks - They can pick up the counter on turn one but it isn't as reliable as the Slurrids. Need a 6+ of Masks for the leap so it's very unreliable. Nurses - Very nice since her Reactivate Effect, from Massive dose, will let you get the token further away from the enemy. Cast it on a cheap minion like the canine remains or something you know is going to get the counter. Remember, you have to be 100% sure your opponent can't get there first since she has short range and will has to cast the spell before the minion move towards the token. Hamelin - For 10 points you'll get an obey which gets you more Ap to manipulate the treasure. Very expensive though so probably not worth it. Unless you're going to include a bunch of Ht 1 models. Could be interesting. McTavish - Obey your beast like the Canine Remains and Night Terrors to have them move closer to the treasure or away from the enemy. Kirai - Really good here. Have a spirit, say Night Terror, move towards the token. Kirai has it switch places with something more durable. New spirit picks it up and moves away. Night Terrors - Good for getting a colony of bats to the token in a hurry. They can get to the token on turn one. Kirai can use her spirit switching ability to swap a new one there and move the token away. edit: Thanks to Spiku Von Schill - Just money here. He has nimble so he gets three movements each activation. With Augmented Jump he loses the flight. However, he still does not get blocked by disengaging strikes. The only bad side is with Wk 5 he has to use all three actions to move to the token, unless you combo with something like a Rotten Belle. Summary: So no plan is going to survive first contact, especially if your opponent has the same idea as you. It could result in a massive scrum in the middle. So when you pick your crew, remember to have something to control the board and/or just kill what your opponent put near your treasure counter. Edited March 8, 2012 by d_mun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Clarification: Sybelle cannot companion a Dead Doxy. Rotten Belles have Companion Sybelle, Sybelle and the Doxy do not have a Companion trait on their Cards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_mun Posted March 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 ...but essentially it boils down to the art of war; if the enemy has to play to you, then you have the advantage. Against the majority of masters knowing they must come to you means they are spending activations advancing, or not specifically engaging; which lets you react. Masters have use soulstones, so by and large you will find that it is the master vs master combat that decides the engagements in contain power (even if I would be using Ophelia for the hammer) Good point. With positioning you want your opponent reacting to you so you can dictate the pace of the game and when and where combat takes place. Then have the Masters mix it up when you're ready for it to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 d_mun: Von Schill is very strong in Shared Treasure due to rocket boots and running over to the treasure. As long as you have the SS, he wont die unless black joker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornelious1424 Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Because the person that rushes their master forward is the one at risk of losing him most. It's a bit like how Shared Slaughter is best played by killing one model without losing one yourself, then hiding away. Certainly every time I've seen it come up in tournaments, there is usually only one table that doesn't end 4-4 This is why I feel that both of those strats should be removed from the game, or possibly turned into a scheme. If I want to play kill the enemy I'll play WHFB. If I want to play master kill, I'll play WarmaHordes. Any game where I've had slaughter or CP were some of my least favorite and boring games of Malifaux. I'll refrain from 'jacking this thread and carry on with my day, carry on!. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_mun Posted March 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 d_mun: Von Schill is very strong in Shared Treasure due to rocket boots and running over to the treasure. As long as you have the SS, he wont die unless black joker wow, just reread him... wow. With the extra move and def capabilities he's just about an auto-include for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rancor709 Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 Von Schill is the Visa of The Resurrectionists, he's everywhere you want to be! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_mun Posted March 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 The only thing I'm not as fan of is his the cost and the drain on our already strained pool. A lot of the Masters big spells are suit dependent, they have low df and/or low Cb so it takes even more to keep him alive. But other then that he's stones in the bank being both reliable and quick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 Better to look at Von Schill as your actual Master and your Resser master as the Henchman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 Von Schill could cost 12 and I'd still run him in every Rezzer list pretty much. He's amazingly good. He's better than most masters in the game. The only thing that keeps him down as a leader is his 4 cache, which is why running him with McMourning is so epic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soundwave Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) Do note that for Shared Treasure hunt, it's a (2) to pick up the treasure. It does throw a bit of a monkey wrench into the "First activation pickup" shenanigans. Without relying on Call Belle (considering how likely it is to get a high mask on the first draw) you could go: A Belle/Sybelle walks 12" up to treasure. Belle 2 walks up 6", lures Dead Doxy. Dead Doxy (0)'s to Sybelle, picks up treasure. It still won't let her move away with the treasure, sadly. With the card for Call Belle, it's a bunch easier, obviously. There's some trixiness that involves Sybelle and a CCK as well, but that's just...too unreliable and includes the CCK, so it's pretty much not ever worth it. And yes, I'm only considering Seamus here. I like Seamus. Edited March 8, 2012 by Soundwave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 The point is more that in a single activation, Von Schill is blocking the treasure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 The point is more that in a single activation, Von Schill is blocking the treasure You cant actually block the treasure with melee. Annoyingly. It's clearly a rules oversight, but people can just walk up and take it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 Oh, silly me; I just always assumed it the case... well that sure makes it easier for me to get the treasure against someone who can't pick up on first turn =3c Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulG Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) Lesse... without using Call Belle... Companion Student of Conflict -> Seamus -> Sybelle -> Belle -> Belle and have Molly in your crew. SoC gives Belle 2 Fast. Belle 1 moves 8" forward and pulls Belle 2 4" forward. Belle 2 moves another 8" forward and picks up the treasure as a (2) action. If you have the Mask you instead move Sybelle up, Call Belle, and then have the fasted Belle move 4" towards your deployment zone. Sadly, you realize afterward that this is your crew. Ressurectionists Crew - 35 - Scrap Seamus, The Mad-Hatter -- 7 Pool + Seamus, Avatar of Dread [2ss] Student of Conflict [4ss] Molly Squidpiddge [9ss] Grave Spirit [1ss] Madame Sybelle [6ss]Rotten Belles [4ss]Rotten Belles [4ss] Personally? Dead Rider may also be worth looking at here. He can push another model to the counter -and- camp it so no one else can get away if they take it. Combine with Belle support to strip the counter from the opponent and you have a decent fight on your side. Edited March 8, 2012 by SoulG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_mun Posted March 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 It's small but I kind of like it. If you get the first initiative flip you can can pretty much secure 2vp from the get go and get your opponent on their back foot. Personally I might drop the Grave Spirit and/or the Avatar to free up some stones but it's pretty good as it stands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_mun Posted March 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 Shared Destroy The Evidence The Basics: Four 30mm markers are placed. Marker 1 goes inside your opponent's deployment zone. Markers 2 and 3 go within 10" of their deployment zone (14" away from yours) and Marker 4 goes in the exact middle. Markers 1, 2 and 3 have to be eight inches away from each other, but they can be closer to Marker 4. The scenarios requires you to be in base-2-base with a Marker and perform a (2) Interact to destroy and remove it from the game. Melee blocks you from taking the Interact action. +1 Vp for getting both Marker 2 & 3 +1 Vp for getting Marker 4 +2 Vp for Marker 1. Things to remember: Getting the middle Marker asap is ideal. You need to get it if you want to get the full Vp for the game. Also your opponent is going to be pushing to get to your deployment zone so you'll want to avoid the Hold Out scheme, but on the flip side Breakthrough is really easy since you'll be heading that way anyway. Strategies: A lot of what held true for Treasure Hunt will hold true here since a large part of the fighting will take place in the middle of the board. Here’s a link if you need a quick reminder. Conversely you can just ignore it completely, give it to your opponent and go for the other three. It will depend on where you can put the markers and if you think your opponent can react to you splitting your forces or stall you. Something you’ll want to keep in mind is leaving a model back for defense to that can prevent your opponent from getting their Markers. Masters: Kirai – She really shines here since she can switch two spirit models. With Night Terrors getting quickly where you need to go and then switching for a fresh spirit you won’t have the same problems most people have of moving one turn and taking the interact the second turn. Nicodem – Rigor Mortis really punishes small crews since paralyzed models cannot block you from taking the (2) Interact action. Also if a scrum comes up in the middle you can fling decay with abandon to heal your models and take out your opponent’s. Night Terrors - Quick movers that are survivable with Spirit. The only downside is lack of companion so you’re opponent will be able to react to where you’re moving them. Avatar Seamus - Making your opponent move away when they try to activate is probably the easiest way I’ve found to clear anyone off the Markers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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