Guy in Suit Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 Please read the last sentence of my post Although McTavish is hardly an answer in an Open Faction tournament - as I don't think he normally makes his way into an all-comers list over Rami unless there is specific terrain you want to be scouting through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 Your last sentence was ambiguous, I assumed it was referring to the "being pushed out of tier 1" as opposed to the match up. Certainly when my opponent announces Neverborn, I'm taking McTavish =3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy in Suit Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 Certainly when my opponent announces Neverborn, I'm taking McTavish =3 When my opponent announces Neverborn, I usually take a non-gremlin Master! Just goes to show - announced fixed-master vs. open faction is a totally different game. Hamelin wouldn't be so powerful if opponents knew what they were up against in the crew selection phase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchethead Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 What compounds the problem is the use of VPs to determine ranking. If I go to a tournament, and the brackets end up with weak players on one side, with myself there, and the other side is all the masters; I will in all likelihood end up with a far higher ranked score, despite not playing anywhere near as hard. Out of the three options found in Gaining Ground, which do you prefer? Obviously not VP. So I assume you'd rather see a TP Primary structure? Or DIFF? A little off topic, I realize, but I'm curious as a Henchman about to run his first tourney. I'll admit, my first instinct was to use a VP Primary format, but after discussing it with other Henchmen and experienced tournament players, I've opted for a TP "Domination" format. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted March 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 I'm going to be running all my tournaments on TP (ie, win/draw/loss) and Strength of Schedule. It's the best way for a huge number of reasons. ---------- Post added at 06:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:21 PM ---------- A great many people feel the atmosphere on this board is becoming unwelcoming and toxic. That affects people. My enjoyment of these games often feeds from the ability to discuss them with other players, and that includes here. I'll be blunt - I don't contribute as much as I used to because it's unpleasant to do so. That is directly attributable to a few posters with attitudes like the one you're defending. I experience more game-related stress trying to follow the nasty discussions than I ever have in a loss to the Dreamer. I think this must be a personal thing. You have a personal issue with me or maybe some other posters, that's fine, but "a great many people" seems like an exaggeration. Look, I'm not a nasty person (and neither are others like pockets whom you may be aiming this comment at). I'm opinionated, and yes, I'm not afraid to tell people when I think they're wrong. That doesn't mean I'm not a nice guy, and you shouldn't let forum arguments get to you. I don't let them get to me and I don't take anything that anyone says as offensive. It's the internet, things are a little more pointed than real life, but you have to realise that no one is out to ruin anyone else's day (at least I'm not). If I've genuinely upset you to the point where you feel that you don't want to get involved anymore, then I apologise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) Calmdown beat me to the punch. Realistically there is not enough time in the day for how I would seek to run a tournament, as it would require too many games to eliminate people. SoS is used to handle the fact that they would be incomplete, essentially. edit: single to double elimination can't work effectively within a single day remit due to having to spread across strategies. so I've cut that bit out. I think this must be a personal thing. You are so oblivious to only just get to that conclusion~ (and neither are others like pockets He bloody is! Edited March 5, 2012 by Spiku Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchethead Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 Just goes to show - announced fixed-master vs. open faction is a totally different game. Hamelin wouldn't be so powerful if opponents knew what they were up against in the crew selection phase. While I'm not a huge fan of Fixed Master, I can't help but feel Malifaux would be better off were players forced to reveal their leader selection prior to the Hiring Crews phase. Models that play well in super specific match-ups would see more table time, masters like Hamelin and Dreamer would be easier to combat with tailored lists. I realize it wouldn't be all roses and sunshine - "Oh, you're playing Seamus ...? See if I hire even a single living model!" or "Lady Justice? Kirai. Every. Single. Time." - but I honestly believe the pros would outweigh the cons. ... but I'm OT again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 I feel that once again we're not really playing Malifaux with fixed masters; there are strategies that just favour certain masters so much more; and it's not fun if you're stuck with one you have when you want to switch up strategies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchethead Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) I feel a player should be able to choose their master after flipping the strat (as it is now). I often wonder how the game would change were leaders then revealed prior to hiring, however. EDIT: Which is to say, separate the hiring of the master from the hiring of the crew, creating two separate phases. Edited March 6, 2012 by Hatchethead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornelious1424 Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 The moment you start flipping cards, all possible tier lists look something like this: Tier 1 - All masters Tier 2 - All masters Tier 3 - All masters I do agree that there are better masters/players/what ever other variables you want to throw out there. However, the moment the deck is shuffled and cards are flipped, it's any players game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhallin Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 I feel a player should be able to choose their master after flipping the strat (as it is now). I often wonder how the game would change were leaders then revealed prior to hiring, however. I'm considering trying this for our next tournament. Few of our local players have expressed the sort of balance concerns we see here though, so I'm not sure it's really necessary for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Clausewitz Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 A question for Calmdown: In you tier list, what do you consider the skill differential to be between tiers? For example, for a tier two master to win regularly against a tier one master does the player need to be slightly better than his opponent? Solidly better? Considerably better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 (edited) I'm not siding with anyone, or calling anyone out. The atmosphere has changed. There are people who don't care for it. Just because people don't want to get into a debate that is pointless....(because if there is no way to change someone's mind, it's pointless), doesn't mean they aren't there. The lack of comments by people that used to always have a contribution is glaringly obvious. It's difficult to communicate on the internet because there is no face-to-face....no body language....no emotion....it's all just black and white words. It's much easier to come off like a jerk on the internet. Face-to-face you can say something strongly but the smile on your face takes the sting out of it and no one gets offended. Of course, it's also easier to just be a jerk because there are no real consequences. As I said, this isn't an attack toward anyone in particular. One of the reasons I don't post a lot is because I'm one of the people that doesn't mean to come off like a jerk....but somehow often does. I try not to throw stones due to my glass house. Edited March 6, 2012 by dgraz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 dgraz: what exactly are you trying to contribute here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 dgraz: what exactly are you trying to contribute here? There is an argument brewing about attitudes and the general feeling of the boards. I don't know the feeling over there, but here there is always the problem of a vocal minority and a silent majority. I decided that I didn't want to be one of the silent majority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistercactus Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 RAINBOWS AND UNICORNS!!!!! (Just wanted to get everyone in a happy place) Let's all just be friends.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchethead Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 I'm considering trying this for our next tournament. Few of our local players have expressed the sort of balance concerns we see here though, so I'm not sure it's really necessary for us. The way I see it, it's as much about encouraging the use of niche models as it is about balance. Seeing a super situational model hired only because the master v master match-up makes it a viable choice would be rewarding in an of itself, and beneficial for all involved. I may be operating under a false pretense, but I tend to see a wider selection of niche models on the table in fixed master scenarios, certainly moreso than standard faction v faction, wherein players tend to fall back on a more generic hiring process. If you do try to implement this in a future tourney, I'd be very interested to hear the results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 There is an argument brewing about attitudes and the general feeling of the boards. I don't know the feeling over there, but here there is always the problem of a vocal minority and a silent majority. I decided that I didn't want to be one of the silent majority. Where is there and here? I still don't really understand I am afraid, I'm sure you're not being cryptic, but I don't understand at all. Equally who or what is the silent majority? Just people who aren't posting in this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 Tier 1- Bowie .... Tier 5,384,256,937,405,873,046,834,556,739- Kid Rock Lemmy is somewhere in between (but much, much closer to Tier Bowie). ---------- Post added at 08:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:18 PM ---------- Where is there and here? I still don't really understand I am afraid, I'm sure you're not being cryptic, but I don't understand at all. Equally who or what is the silent majority? Just people who aren't posting in this thread? I think he means the states. Politics. Left/Right extremes hijacking the political discourse, or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 (edited) Buhalin and Pockets are going back and forth a little with Buhalin saying something about the way people talk and how it has affected the atmosphere of the boards. I was agreeing with this but without trying to cast any blame on anyone in particular. Sorry to come across cryptic but I know for a fact that people tend to misunderstand my intent and I was trying to be very careful about offending anyone. Yes, the Silent Majority is a lot of people that have an opinion, but don't feel the need to talk about all the time. The Vocal Minority being just a few people but they squawk so loudly that things get changed / adopted / believed. Edit: Oh and by; here and there - I meant UK and US. I don't know the political standing / attitudes over there...so I can only say that we have that problem here. I know that in many other countries people go against the government and pour into the streets and stuff and let their problems be heard.....most of us over here are just sheep.....so the term Silent Majority may be only a US thing as far as I know. Edited March 6, 2012 by dgraz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciroth Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 As a new player this thread has been very informative and a lot of fun to read. I can't help but wonder however, if defining a game/tournament format would be helpful? It seems that a lot of the perceived balance of masters is dependent upon open vs. closed lists. With no defined standard, I can see how it would be hard to make tiers. Unlike Magic the Gathering (only as an example) there is no defined system that players use as a base for their competitive assumptions. As a side note, my local area has run some tournaments using a sort of magic deck plus side board system. A fixed list and caster with up to half the points in a set sideboard of models. Extra soul stone are listed and transferable. Players would know opposing masters before the round began and could side board in models. All the games seemed to be close and kept model count manageable for new players that couldn't afford an entire faction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgfree Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 (edited) As a new player this thread has been very informative and a lot of fun to read. I can't help but wonder however, if defining a game/tournament format would be helpful? It seems that a lot of the perceived balance of masters is dependent upon open vs. closed lists. With no defined standard, I can see how it would be hard to make tiers. Unlike Magic the Gathering (only as an example) there is no defined system that players use as a base for their competitive assumptions. As a side note, my local area has run some tournaments using a sort of magic deck plus side board system. A fixed list and caster with up to half the points in a set sideboard of models. Extra soul stone are listed and transferable. Players would know opposing masters before the round began and could side board in models. All the games seemed to be close and kept model count manageable for new players that couldn't afford an entire faction. There is a defined tournament system, it is called Gaining Grounds and the PDF is available on the site. Gaining Grounds lets you choose which type of list, in my Meta, we always play Closed Faction which is how the Rules Manual dictates how the hiring process should go. Edited March 6, 2012 by msgfree made an error Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 dgraz: That's quite hard to comment on; you're basically saying that you don't like how the forum is because of the tone of people like Buhalin trying to fight with Calmdown rather than contribute to threads, and Calmdown being cold to people; and the feeling that this is the underpinning "feel" of the forum, sweeping aside more general posts? Thanks for the clarification on here and there; I'm not in a position to comment on our country though =X London is a bugger as it is to try and define any part politically! I'm still relatively new; I mean I've seen Calmdown banned for calling a racist stupid, and I've been in and out because of how discussions turned myself because of the engagements between myself and someone, and seen a fair old conversation turn into just angry comments about attitudes rather than the content, but I do like to be here, otherwise I wouldn't be =D Does the silent majority refer only to the fact they aren't engaging vocally, or is it suggesting that there is an underlying shared feeling amongst them more than just not wishing to be vocal? Ciroth: The tiers are based on the game as is; I would never play in a tournament with a closed list, and I sure hope no one has hosted one! The game is based on picking your crew when you have your strategy, and taking schemes that suit your goals. If you had a set list, it would severely weaken some crews, and put the dreamer (and likely Hamelin) further ahead than he is presently! It is generally best to look at these purely as a single master and his match ups against every other master. Though point values would seem to mean more, you'll find that generally everyone fits in their core at 30-35 anyway, and everything above that is just extra "toys". The power spread favours, in my opinion, neverborn at higher points value, just because of the strength of the twins and stitched in the first place! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 dgraz: That's quite hard to comment on; you're basically saying that you don't like how the forum is because of the tone of people like Buhalin trying to fight with Calmdown rather than contribute to threads, and Calmdown being cold to people; and the feeling that this is the underpinning "feel" of the forum, sweeping aside more general posts? This is correct, aside from the part that I don't like it. I understand the way it is and I can read what people say without being upset or insulted. I'm saying that I believe others don't like it. There are lots of people who have drifted away from the forums for one reason or another....I think a good bit of that is due to the "feel" of the forum as you say. That's not just an assumption, people have straight out said "can't take it anymore, I'm outta here." And yes, the silent majority fail to speak up. I rarely comment but I felt I needed to, just to put a little more emphasis on the fact that the coldness / arrogance / arguing / negativity is having a negative impact on the forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 Certainly when my opponent announces Neverborn, I'm taking McTavish =3 When my opponent announces Neverborn, I usually take a non-gremlin Master! That started my day with a smile He bloody is! I told you, the kittens were an accident I feel a player should be able to choose their master after flipping the strat (as it is now). I often wonder how the game would change were leaders then revealed prior to hiring, however. EDIT: Which is to say, separate the hiring of the master from the hiring of the crew, creating two separate phases. I really, really like this idea. Pick your Master in secret and then reveal it, much like schemes. I'm not sure if the Liverpool tourny is trying this in a few weeks (Ian? You mentioned it on the podcast) but would be cool to try it out to see how it goes. dgraz: what exactly are you trying to contribute here? Easy tiger.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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