North Wind and its limitless power!! also Hoarcats and Acolytes now ROCK!

[KamikaZ]

now after referencing the stat cards thoroughly and then cross referencing with the rulebook it seems I have won this argument over the ice mirror theory =D examine if you will exhibit A) Silent 1 spell North wind flavour text:-

(1) NORTH WIND

(CC:14:tomes) / Rst: - / Rg::aura3) Models with Frozen Heart receive +3 the Rg of their abilities, spells, and ranged weapons. and ranges are not increased

note how there is no comma between aura and pulse ranges.... meaning range (the word) not abbreviation for the word is able to be affected but not the pulse or aura radius =D

Exhibit B Tina and silent 1 text for ice mirror:-

Ice Mirror: When casting a spell this model may draw LoS and range from a friendly model with Frozen Heart withhin 6". These spells receive -3 Ca. Spells with the icon may not be cast through a model in melee using Ice Mirror.

note on the front of her card under abilities Ice Mirror is in this list, thus having the +3 added to her range as Rg is abbreviation of range.

for those arguing about the Rg and range being different things here is exhibit C:-

pg 51 under Magic it has (Rg) Spell Range: A spells Rg is the furthest effective distance, in inches, the spell can reach. Spells that target the caster have a range of C. Spells with or in their ranges follow the rules for aura and pulse effects respectively (p.20). Spells with a or icon in their Rg are melee and ranged attack spells respectively and follow the targeting rules for those types of attacks. Modifiers that affect melee or ranged attacks affect these spells as well.

so as you see Rg and range are as I have said 1 and the same but this also adds the effectiveness of hoarcats and wendigo totem back into play consider the rules a spell with:melee is effectively a melee attack yes??? well after a model is killed with a melee attack it can take the (0) Eat Your Fill action..... hmmmmm a dead model and a healing flip from a spell??? yes!! Exhibit D:- (1) Devour

(CC:13:tomes:crows / Rst: Df / Rg: :melee2) Sacrifice Living Ht 1 model.

hoarcat pride has ability Voracious: if this model casts Devour while there is another friendly Hoarcat Pride within 3" it recieves +3 Ca and Devour may target an Ht 1 or 2 model.

wow a usefulness for the cats but what happens if we give these suckers Frozen Heart near a silent 1??? North Wind increases Rg of abilities no?? is Voracious an ability?? I believe YES!! so hoarcat prides within 6" wow mega devouring with eat your fill as its a melee attack never lose the cats again!!!

so as you can see North Wind is as I have said an awesome spell giving complete and perfect synergy to the entire tina crew and even gives you a reason to take the hoarcats again. Thank you ill be here all week =P

[Calmdown]

Sorry, but North Wind does not add +3 range to Ice Mirror.

Rg and Range are different thing. Rg is the specific range of an ability when referred to in its description (such as a gun with Rg 16).

This has been discussed at length in the rules forum and confirmed to not work plenty of times. It does suck though for new players trying to understand the rules, definitely, that these confusing terms exist.

The same applies to voracious. It is a Range, not an Rg.

I wish it did work like that

(Also, please use paragraphs and basic formatting in your post. Its very hard to read.)

Edited February 17, 2012 by Calmdown

[CrouchingMoose]

Calmdown is 100% right on all of this.

The problem it seems you keep having is you are translating anything that says "within x inches" as "range"...technically you are correct. But "range" is not a game term, while "RG" is...you keep trying to add +3 RG to what is essentially RG: -

However, after looking at the facts in your argument, North wind on a hoarcats with frozen heart can devour any ht1 model with a melee RG: 5

[Lucidicide]

Sorry, but North Wind does not add +3 range to Ice Mirror.

Rg and Range are different thing. Rg is the specific range of an ability when referred to in its description (such as a gun with Rg 16).

This has been discussed at length in the rules forum and confirmed to not work plenty of times. It does suck though for new players trying to understand the rules, definitely, that these confusing terms exist.

The same applies to voracious. It is a Range, not an Rg.

I wish it did work like that

(Also, please use paragraphs and basic formatting in your post. Its very hard to read.)

Calmdown is 100% right on all of this.

Thirded.

[Calmdown]

However, after looking at the facts in your argument, North wind on a hoarcats with frozen heart can devour any ht1 model with a melee RG: 5

That's never not been the case; it's a melee spell so its specifically included by North Wind.

Unfortuntely it doesnt make Hoarcats any better

[Lucidicide]

That's never not been the case; it's a melee spell so its specifically included by North Wind.

Unfortuntely it doesnt make Hoarcats any better

Nothing is better than being adorable.

[Calmdown]

Nothing is better than being adorable.

True. It is why so many people play The Dreamer, after all. That and his awesome fluff.

[Hatchethead]

Ice Mirror is simply a 6" aura that isn't officially an aura (no icon). With regard to North Wind and Ice Mirror, while not the most intuitive ruling, it does make perfect sense.

[KamikaZ]

hmmmmmmm well that sorta sucks as essentially all the descriptions are in favour of it and right under our noses, but in this instance couldnt breaking the rules be in effect, p7 in bold indicates When a models specific rule or ability contradicts these core rules, follow the specific rule ratther than the core rules. as the biggest argument I have is it adds +3 Rg and the more ive read it the more it seems to read that way it doesnt add up as even under the ranged attack rules it says that its range.... so the abiliy therefore should be able to benefit as north wind states it does.... otherwise essentially the spell shouldnt have abilities listed if they cant be affected

---------- Post added at 05:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:46 AM ----------

although the aura description hatchet gives seems to be the only plausible reason why it cant work but if that's even the case it realistically should be changed on the stat cards, as much as I would love to accept that's how it is I see too many flaws to help tina and her crew get synergy as the only thing they seem to have now is frozen heart and that's it.

the acolytes, hoarcat prides, and snow storm have eat your fill which is cool but it should be able to be paired as its a 0 pt action after a melee attack (rule states a melee spell works the same as a melee attack) so it should work that way..

one last thing id like to add is silent 1's are rare 2 what reasoning is this? it essentially isnt more powerful than most models from other factions that don't have rare characteristics, so why wouldnt its reason be because north wind does work how its read I just see to many negative to positive ratios with them is all

[Buhallin]

The problem it seems you keep having is you are translating anything that says "within x inches" as "range"...technically you are correct. But "range" is not a game term, while "RG" is...you keep trying to add +3 RG to what is essentially RG: -

This isn't quite correct.

"Range" is a game term - but it's not what North Wind modifies.

"Rg" is NOT just shorthand for "range" - it's identifying a specific stat. If an ability has that stat, it gets increased. If it doesn't, then North Wind has no effect on it. That's why Ice Mirror isn't boosted. It's not "Rg: -", it just doesn't have a Rg stat associated with it.

I'm honestly not sure why so many people find this one confusing. Nobody looks at the -2 Df for Undress and says "It's -2 defense so they're at -2 whenever they're defending". But for some reason, this one continues to cause issues. <shrug>

---------- Post added at 01:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:38 PM ----------

Ice Mirror is simply a 6" aura that isn't officially an aura (no icon).

Not entirely accurate.

Auras require some form of LOS path between origin and target. A simple "within X inches" ability like Ice Mirror does not. The biggest impact of this difference will be on indoor boards or tables which include other building interiors - If Rasputina and an Ice Gamin are in rooms completely blocked from each other by a wall, she can still bounce spells off it. If Ice Mirror were an then she could not.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I agree on this one Buhallin, although an associated wording issue is definitely there with Df Vs Defense on other models, as that was an issue that was asked a couple times in the consolidated FAQ thread, and not just by me.

Case in point, Molly, her Terrible Secret spell gives a double negative twist on all attack and defense flips. According to RAW an attack is very clearly defined, but a defense flip is more nebulous as the RM refers multiple times to attacker and defender, but the only defense flip by RAW is the Df flip. That is how we play her, but it is an issue that has been asked about via intent, if Terrible Secret was intended to be in effect whenever the model in question is the defender. That would make much more sense to me given her SS cost.

In this specific situation I agree with you, but I can see why it is initially confusing.

[Hatchethead]

Auras require some form of LOS path between origin and target. A simple "within X inches" ability like Ice Mirror does not. The biggest impact of this difference will be on indoor boards or tables which include other building interiors - If Rasputina and an Ice Gamin are in rooms completely blocked from each other by a wall, she can still bounce spells off it. If Ice Mirror were an then she could not.

True enough. I was being a bit flip. That said, my point still stands in that the application of "range" is handled in a similar fashion.

[Buhallin]

Case in point, Molly, her Terrible Secret spell gives a double negative twist on all attack and defense flips. According to RAW an attack is very clearly defined, but a defense flip is more nebulous as the RM refers multiple times to attacker and defender, but the only defense flip by RAW is the Df flip. That is how we play her, but it is an issue that has been asked about via intent, if Terrible Secret was intended to be in effect whenever the model in question is the defender.

I can see this, but the ambiguity comes in the use of the word "defender", not because of the stat.

I fully understand the potential for confusion when you're considering Engligh -> Stat translations (i.e. "defender" vs. "Df"). But Stat -> English transitions seem to be about as tightly defined as its possible to be.

To build from your example, if Terrible Secret said it affected Df flips, there would be no confusion about it at all.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Correct, as it says Defense flips it is confusing as to intent. I was just saying why I understood the OP's confusion, but I agree with your interpretation, and it is something that I think Wyrd could benefit from CCG manufacturers and really get picky and finicky about a Keyword is and how it is presented. Not just capitalizing as a differentiation between place and Place, but instead Place, which could be listed as a keyword.

[KamikaZ]

Thank you all for that clarification.... although would have been cool for the 3 extra on ice mirror, but ah well couldnt overly see what you were getting at with Rg and range but its easy to see after reading through the rule book and the stat cards once more, Rg is in bold text so its specifically as it is, the definition for it is what confuses as it states range as in a measured distance so as I am not one to continue arguing after I have been clearly wrong and now realising this sorry for the hassle I shall slink back o the bayou...... tail between my legs and all that =p although north wind does increase spell range it is still cool in that respect!

a question regading that though could you stack the Rg if 2 silent 1's cast it within vicinity? if so an extra 6" to all things mentioned would be very handy

[Calmdown]

a question regading that though could you stack the Rg if 2 silent 1's cast it within vicinity? if so an extra 6" to all things mentioned would be very handy

Effects of the same name never stack, so unfortunately not

[KamikaZ]

even though thats the case because of I suppose my speal on the rulings which I have discovered is not actually what i thought it was, the hoarcats and decembers acolyte are quite handy now as being able to devour and use eat your fill in the same turn is pretty handy although acolytes can only do it to ht 1 models and cats can only do it to ht 2 if theres a second 1 within 3 but devour gets a better chance at going off making it a nasty master killer as most are ht 2

[Fetid Strumpet]

If you can get it to work, yeah I agree it's pretty awesome. There is one issue with it though, Masters can use SS. It is the one issue when most minions try to do anything important to masters, the opposing Master is going to spend SS to prevent anything important that you expend important resources to achieve. Although if you are just trying to drain non-renewable resources from the Master it can definitely be very useful.

[KamikaZ]

I agree with using ss its not really a viable option with wendigo as raspy gets much more use out of them, I use him more as a mirror and I give him armour 2 through decembers touch so he takes less damage but mostly I use him to create my ice pillars as they dont have a resist and its ca is only 10 its useful but thats just how I play mind you. I do see use for essence but he doesnt fit with how I use my crew so he isnt a viable option for me, that being said I tend to also use models most find to be little to no use I like the golem after using it last game he could see over a hill that the rest couldnt so I cast decemebers curse through it twice killing candy a sorrow and a stitched together but technically stitched didnt die because of its sacrificial effect I used raspy to trap kade on the hill and he couldnt do anything =D

all in all worked well but after reading that devour is considered a melee attack it works well with eat your fill so I think ill try the cats next time paired with a gamin and its bite of winter spell to reduce its negatives for when the spell doesnt go off but I like to try to find use for my models takes some learning but each time I learn wht works in certain strats than others.....