Santiago Machine Gun

[crusaderlord]

New player here - tried a couple of test games today just 3 models a side to learn the mechanics and thought i would just check ive not completely lost the rule plot.

Santiago was very impressive for his 7 cost (relative to Francisco and Nino anyway) - he seemed like a machine gun at one stage running with a rapid fire 3 shots he then pulled off trigger happy twice within these 3 shots (as far as i could work out he only had to hit a pull off a mask alongside the ram he already owns and the shot doubled up) - needless to say his oppenent couldnt cope with that many bullets.

Perdita was equally efficient with quick draw and fast pulling off a lot of extra shots

Did i miss something - why is Nino worth the same is it just the distance shot range that pulls his cost up ?

One other question for now was Perdita Heros Gamble - can youin effect switch your control hand every time you activate her ?

Anyway great fun - i really liked the card hand aspect and having to accept one hit to save a good card for later

[Calmdown]

Welcome to Malifaux.

My advice is not to read too much into good and bad when youre new. Guild in particular often seem very good to new players because theyre upfront very damaging, but when you get deeper into the game and play strategies and schemes properly youll find this is balanced by other factors.

You played Hero's Gamble correctly. Her Quick Draw ability is a good reason not to do it every turn though. Depends on the situation - that's the great thing about Malifaux. You dont just move and fire, you make some decisions.

Welcome again to te game. Ask anything you like on the forums, theres tons of people here who will help.

[vagen]

Welcome aboard.

I had similar thoughts when I started playing as well. (I also started with Perdita) Once you start playing some more games against other opponents you'll see each model do it's fair share of the heavy lifting. In one day I had Nino head shot the Dead Rider and Lucius, while Santiago spent the day out of range, trapped behind cover or dead. And I've had days where Nino couldn't get a bead on anything and Santiago mopped the floors with several models at once. In the end it all comes down to the cards you draw and circumstances you find yourself in.

Once again, Welcome aboard.

[KitKatKat]

I play the Ortega's primarily, and I, for one, greatly dislike Santiago.

Nino is a godsend for the way I play. I take down my enemies before they can even touch me through a combination of alpha strikes, Nino's 16" range, and Perdita's and the Enslaved's ability to Obey.

Part of what makes Nino so excellent is his capacity for board control. He has a 16" range, and if you get off "In My Sights," he has CB 9 and the ability to get off Trigger Happy or Headshot. If you want something dead, it will die. I've had instances where, turn 2, I've mowed down 3 models with Nino alone. However, he is difficult to position and when he gets into melee, he dies fast.

Santiago is far too slow for what he does, in my opinion. (I'm doing this all from memory, so I may be a bit off with numbers). His walk is only 4, which is the same as Nino's, yet I do not see his ability to hit as hard. His CB is lower, and he has no built in way to change it, like Francisco does. He's no better in melee than he is at range, and at range pretty much all of his family is better than he. In melee, Perdita and Francisco are better (in my experience). I also dislike the fact that he has to be half-dead in order to get his buffs. It promotes reckless play with him and makes it far too easy for him to get focused. Maybe I'm missing something with him, but as far as my play style goes, he is not worth the 7 points. If he was 5, I would take him in a heartbeat. But stone for stone, I greatly prefer Francisco and Nino.

[nilus]

KitKatKat,

You need to get Santiago hurt. Once he is down to 4 wds he gets a boost to shooting(+2 CB), +1 flip in damage and a free walk. Plus he has rapid fire. So you are starting with 3 shots. Plus he has critical strike with a built in Ram.

So him vs Nino.

-You lose 6" of range

- You lose 2 CB(7 CB to a 9 CB)

- You lose head shot

- You are down 4 wounds(Technically they have the same wds but Santiago is better hurt)

- You gain a better damage line with critical strike

- You gain 1 free shot with rapid fire(both models have trigger happy)

- You gain a positive flip on damage

- You gain bullet proof

- You gain hard to kill

- Your melee is slightly better

- You gain a free walk action

- You are paired

All signs point to Santiago to me. He is awesome with a Guardian to keep his health up and give him some extra armor(and act as his Melee bodyguard).

Some things to consider is for Perdita to obey Nino she needs to stay within 12" and LOS of him. Which can be tricky since he stays in the back. Also you lose the 6" companion ability pretty quickly with him. Santiago can stay close to her and still get all those perks.

I find the best tactic for him is to use an obey and/or a free walk to move him into position. Have him drop a card to rapid fire(which is 3 shots, maybe more with trigger happy) and then use obey to move him back to cover or even better blocking LOS terrain.

So yeah Santiago > Nino IMHO

Edited February 14, 2012 by nilus

[Brettqpublic]

They both have their uses. Santiago is a monster for all the reasons Nilus mentioned. With Hard to Kill your opponent has to dump a fair amount into him to make sure he's dead before he goes super nova. What makes Nino dangerous isn't so much what he does but what he has the potential to do. With a hand of high masks it is entirely possible to drop 2-3 minions in a single activtion and headshot makes him a very scary customer for later in the turn when your opponent may not have two cards to spare. Typically, I run Sunny up front with Perdita and a Peacekeeper to keep the melee off of him while Nino hangs out in back with Francisco as a bodyguard.

[nilus]

I have actually used the enslaved Neph as Ninos bodyguard before. With Flay he actually puts out a decent amount of damage in melee. Sure it means you probably have to sacrifice a high Mask to use it but you probably are holding those already for Nino and if hes tied up in melee he is SOL anyways.

[nix]

Paired on Santiago should not be overlooked. Paired increases the chances of pulling a mask on your attack flip so, in theory, trigger happy should go off more often with Santiago.

Also, the loss of 6" in range is a slight bit misleading. Once hurt, Santiago picks up an additional walk AP (as mentioned) which somewhat offsets that loss of range.

[Brettqpublic]

I have actually used the enslaved Neph as Ninos bodyguard before. With Flay he actually puts out a decent amount of damage in melee. Sure it means you probably have to sacrifice a high Mask to use it but you probably are holding those already for Nino and if hes tied up in melee he is SOL anyways.

I hadn't thought of that. I'm going to have to try that!

[cerealkiller195]

Have to agree Nino has a range of abilities that make him better, he has more range has abilities that help him out moving through/seeing through terrain. Has head shot which can auto-kill some miniatures. Can cast In my Sights to both check range (if you aren't sure he can make it) and/or get +2cb when shooting.

[13th Warrior]

You're also missing Leadstorm with Santiago - against crews with lots of low wound models (Collodi and Kirai especially) it's just excellent. Get your timing right and you can give him a 12"-16" (3 walks or 2 charges and a walk) move then cast Leadstorm.

It's not going to be worth it every game, but it's a very powerful attack, and because of Companion, once you see your chance, it's pretty much impossible to interrupt.

Nino's fantastic, but when I run Guild I also always include Santiago as you've got complementary abilities - Nino can take out big nasties with Trigger Happy / Headshot, Santiago can deal with hordes.

My core Perdita crew tends to be:

Perdita

Enslaved Nephilim

Nino

Santiago

Then add flavouring to suit. I very rarely use the rest of the Family (I've still never used Papa Loco!) as there are better models out there.

Cheers

Rob

[Gollum528]

Nino is easily my favorite piece in the game. With combat 9, 16" range, trigger happy, and headshot you can easily kill two or three times as many points as he's worth every game and reduce your opponents hand size quite a bit (or in most cases make them afraid to use it) with him. The main thing that I think makes nino better is consistency though. Nino will be reliable almost every game once you learn him as in my experience Santiago is either a Godsend or a cannon fodder for my opponent.