Navar Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 I have been debating for a while whether to write this or to remain silent, but I have decided that feedback can only be a positive thing. Let me begin by saying I love Wyrd Miniatures products and the rules and creativity found in Malifaux. I don’t want to digress, but truly Wyrd has created something unique and wonderful. That is why this has been so hard, because criticism, no matter how justified, has a negative connotation that I am unable to surpass. I know that there will be many fanboys who will rise up to the defense of Wyrd in response to this and it will not surprise me, but it will sadden me a bit because it is my sincere hope that this feedback is received with understanding. I believe that the larger models that Wyrd has been making have been of a vastly lower quality than the initial run of models that were in general smaller. That is a hard sentence to type, but allow me to back it up with some examples. Nightmare Edition Lord Chompy Bits: This model is amazing, but assembling it, getting rid of mold lines, and filling gaps was a challenge. Before I started with the modeling putty the model looked horrid. I told myself that this was a small print run model though and mistakes like this in the casting couldn’t be avoided. Hooded Rider: This is another amazing model, but again putting it together made me want to throw things. The way the “hair” on the horse went into the head was abhorrent, and the pegs were uniformly to large for the holes they were to occupy. Again when I was finished this model had its own horrid beauty, but it was very labor intensive. Nightmare Edition Teddy: This model has many of the same problems that the Hooded rider did with 12 claws that refused to go into the holes designed for them. Also neither head lines up with the neck on this model. Again it isn’t something that is impossible to repair, but it takes a large time investment just to assemble and gap fill this model. Avatar Som’er Teeth Jones: This is the model that motivated me to type this post. Before I was able to tell myself that Wyrd was moving away from metal and coming into the new age of mini war gaming with Resin. Surely it would be an improvement. Sadly this was not the case. The largest problem with this model was the metal head on “Peaches” the pig. It simply doesn’t fit the hole on the body of the big. Now the legs also fit poorly, but because of their positioning on the model, it isn’t as big of a deal. Again with a solid application of modeling putty I was able to fill the gaps and make the head fit, but that is the crux of the problem with all of these models, they are very time intensive to assemble. The quality that I had come to associate with Wyrd is lacking. In conclusion let me highlight that the problem isn’t with the conceptualizing of the models. They still demonstrate the creativity and love that I have come to associate with Wyrd, and that keeps me coming back to this brand. Also before anyone comments that this is just the reality of working with larger pieces, I would direct you to Privateer Press, and their Warjacks and Warbeasts. They show a logical progression from the first releases of pure metal notoriously not fitting together and requiring entire sticks of modeling putty to assemble to where they are today announcing colossal Warjacks being released, and the much less complaints about their new resin kits. Thanks for taking the time to read this, sorry it is a bit verbose. A dedicated fan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Jack* Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 To be honest, I think this is the case with most big metal miniatures. Trying to remember sticking a few khador jacks together, had to leave the boilers off because they just wouldnt fit. An inevitability of miniatures I think. Luckily, greenstuff and liquid putty is your friend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striker8 Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 I'm going to assume you're rather new to the hobby. Trying to claim the large mini's Wyrd does are any worse than anyone elses shows proves inexperiene and more than a bit of bias. I've done mini's for 30 years with the last 10 as a comission painter, and they all have thier moments. I think for the most part the Wyrd mini's are done as well as can be considering the way the sculpts have to be cut up for casting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsmiles Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 I still prefer metal minis. I prefer Wyrd's minis over any other company's that I've worked with. PP, GW, Reaper, Ral Partha, and Rackham all pale in comparison to the quality of Wyrd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadilon Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 I'm going to assume you're rather new to the hobby. Trying to claim the large mini's Wyrd does are any worse than anyone elses shows proves inexperiene and more than a bit of bias. Maybe inexperience (I am inexperienced too), but I don't see bias against Wyrd by the OP. I read in his post a suggestion for improvement. Maybe all large models have been done poorly during the past 30 years, but shouldn't we encourage our favorite miniature company to excel and lift their quality above every other miniature maker? I had similar issues with Avatar Sonnia. After some work, it looks fine. I guess I don't understand how the arms on some of the smallest models can fit perfectly, but the larger models have issues. I'd think the larger models would be easier to work with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mako Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 I had similar issues with Avatar Sonnia. After some work, it looks fine. I guess I don't understand how the arms on some of the smallest models can fit perfectly, but the larger models have issues. I'd think the larger models would be easier to work with. It's all about the shrinkage of metal during cooling. Because it's a percentage size loss, the bigger things suffer from it more. Compensating for this is a real pain when sculpting I'm told (my sculpting is usually for single use or resin casting but I know a few guys that do metal casting), as smaller parts no longer want to fit to larger pieces! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadilon Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 It's all about the shrinkage of metal during cooling. Because it's a percentage size loss, the bigger things suffer from it more. Compensating for this is a real pain when sculpting I'm told (my sculpting is usually for single use or resin casting but I know a few guys that do metal casting), as smaller parts no longer want to fit to larger pieces! That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the insight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navar Posted February 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 Jack you are correct about early heavy jacks (I assume Khador had this problem despite never assembling one.) The issue I see is that as Privateer Press has been around for longer their models have fit together better. I can point to several companies and list models that fit together poorly. I would like to see Wyrd also improve in this field. I believe that Wyrd is in the business for the long haul and I intend to continue to support them. I don't know why Striker you would assume I was new to the hobby. My first exposure to Mini War Gaming came in 1993 with a Dark Elf Man O' War fleet. And believe me I recognize that times have indeed changed. I have worked with Wyrd, Reaper, Rackham, Games Workshop, and Privateer Press in Metal, Resin, and Plastic for the past 20 years. As I said I understand that larger models are harder to fit, and I held my tongue until I had a Wyrd Resin model and it to suffered from poor fit. The issue is that I don't see a progression. The Claws on Nightmare teddy fit just as poorly as the horse's "Hair" on the hooded rider. Again I love the models and the game. I likely DO have some bias, but if anything I think it is towards Wyrd, not any other company. I can think of LOTS of miniatures from other companies that were worse to put together, but I believe that as time has progressed those companies that have stayed in business (I do miss Rackham) have become better at casting larger pieces. I to would like to see this with Wyrd. I can't wait for the model for Weaver Widow and I eagerly await the greatness that will be this year's Malifaux book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mako Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 @Cadilon: No problem, I'm lucky enough to hear both sides of this one so thought I'd chime in. I really don't enjoy prepping models, and when they take a bunch of pins and putty to get them to fit it's very annoying. I've even stopped working on some stuff because of the effort it was taking before I got near a brush (old large metal kits from GW are most of the memories of that happening!). There comes a point where the fit is so bad that it's not really excusable. But there's a limit to how perfect any multipart casting can be, especially when it's something like the hooded rider's horse tentacle bits. They're just so much smaller than the main piece, there's always going to be a bit of black magic to sculpt them to even vaguely fit together! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Smigs Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 I admit,I feel a little out of place here.... never had a problem assembling any of the PP warjacks... or the warbeasts I can think of..and I built every army in the game at one point or another.... as for the wyrd stuff, haven't tried it yet, but in general I feel the quality of their sculpts has been declining in the last series of releases... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navar Posted February 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 n general I feel the quality of their sculpts has been declining in the last series of releases... I would in no way go this far. My purchases that have not been on 50mm bases have been fantastic as always. I also don't feel that the large models have gotten any worse, they just also haven't been getting better either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Smigs Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 that's why I said "I feel" it's gotten worse... Examples... The original Perdita looks... "hungry"... for lack of a better term... mean, angry, starved for violence... however you want to put it... Alt Perdita however, can't seem to decide why she has pistols in the first place, since they're getting in the way of her T-Rex impersonation... but then... there's a new style to the art that they've been going with... more cartoonish in the builds (*again, IMO*)... fewer sleek lines, more jaunty angles... less clean cut (See original Seamus), more worn down and tattered (See Alt Seamus) personally, while I can get that's the feel they're going for in the whole setting, the sculpts like that just don't look as good to me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odinsgrandson Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 Hm... that looks like a taste issue. Also, I haven't found it to be true across the board- (compare Alt. Lady Justice, Pandora, Zoraida, Ramos, and Sonnia against the originals). The lines are all as crisp, and the overall look to the minis are either as dirty or as clean as the originals. I do think that they've moved more towards dramatic combat poses. Sonnia and Ramos show this one off pretty well- both are in the middle of an action, rather than between actions. But all of this is off topic. On topic: I have felt for a long time that ease of assembly wasn't much of a consideration for the folks at Wyrd. When their line didn't have a game, their clients were mostly veteran modelers who don't blink an eye at pinning Viktoria's hands. Overall, I think they might be trying to make their minis a little easier to cast or assemble, but I think the form-over-function philosophy still runs pretty deep. Especially on LE minis and big Avatar minis that will be centerpieces. These are going to be centerpieces, and I think that they're more concerned with making big dramatic minis that they sacrifice a lot of ease. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Smigs Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 On topic: I have felt for a long time that ease of assembly wasn't much of a consideration for the folks at Wyrd. When their line didn't have a game, their clients were mostly veteran modelers who don't blink an eye at pinning Viktoria's hands. Overall, I think they might be trying to make their minis a little easier to cast or assemble, but I think the form-over-function philosophy still runs pretty deep. agreed. Wyrd always seems to be more about getting the sculpt to look right rather than worry about ease of assembly/transportation etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tattyted Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 On topic; I have built models for many years and there have been some stinkers (Skorne titans have particularly unplesant memories). I have no complaints about the quality of wyrd castings, yes some of the parts don't go together perfectly, (I had to fill small gaps on avatar sonnia) but that is true of all manufacturers I have come across, but the quality of the parts is still excellent. Off topic; I don't care for alt seamus - he looks as if he has just changed back from avatar form and I agree the style has become more cartoony- the doxy on his base reminds me of an undead Jessica Rabbit. Thing is for some models it works but for others it doesn't. Thats life, and thats my opinion. It isn't necessarily right. And its not just Wyrd- I love Everblight but can't stand the Nyss models. Dare I suggest that part of it may be due to the painting -the new Somer seems to have spent time in a tanning salon. On topic again; I am happy that Wyrd care more about the look of the models rather than the ease of assembly. Besides they are a lot easier to assemble than some of Rackhams stuff was - and dont get me started on Mortenebra! And so far I have found that although they are intricate, if properly pinned and filled, they are still robust enough to stand up to transportation and regular gaming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harbinger Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 Besides they are a lot easier to assemble than some of Rackhams stuff was I cant curse enough about putting together Rackham minis. There is a small dent in the wall over my painting table that suspiciously resembles the mini I bought to proxy for Nekima till she was released... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 I'm going to assume you're rather new to the hobby. Trying to claim the large mini's Wyrd does are any worse than anyone elses shows proves inexperiene and more than a bit of bias. Buy any of the Soda Pop Miniatures Relic Knights in metal. Assembling Calico Kate's Relic required no putty, unlike the warpig and som'er and peaches (edit: my faithful manservant also adds that the rogue necromancy didn't fit right without putty, and that the necrotic machine suffered the same fiddly as Soda Pop, but the parts did not place correctly without modification). The Noh Berserkers required none, and neither did the ogress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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