The secret of Marcus?

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

With SS there is no reason you shouldn't get the spell off. You also shouldn't even be trying unless you have the card in your hand to do so. Assuming you have those two things, there are many models out there that will do more damage then Marcus. Marcus is not bad at melee but he's no where near as good as some others. I'd rather have Marcus take a turn away from Nekima and force her to kill herself or someone else then make Marcus do it, when he's not even likely to kill her on his own in one turn.

It is totally a situational ability, and the 2 ap and short range make it dangerous. But, I see no reason it cannot be used more often then people let on.

[ukrocky]

I'm not saying its useless, but across about 60 games with the majority tournament games I think I've;

- Alpha'd 0 times

- Primal Flame'd (Or whatever the healing one is called) about twice as I had nothing better to do

- Feral'd 0 times

- Howled about twice, max five times.

- Stare down'd 0 times.

They're nice abilities to have on occasion, but not needed them yet.

[Nephalumps]

I'm not saying its useless, but across about 60 games with the majority tournament games I think I've;

- Alpha'd 0 times

- Primal Flame'd (Or whatever the healing one is called) about twice as I had nothing better to do

- Feral'd 0 times

- Howled about twice, max five times.

- Stare down'd 0 times.

They're nice abilities to have on occasion, but not needed them yet.

This is exceptionally illuminating! It seems you play Marcus a helluva lot more aggressive than I do.

While I agree that Alpha is nigh worthless, I've used Feral and Stare down a good number of times. Primal Flame is absolutely situational, and rare. Howl usage is mainly based on crew composition on both sides, but it's neat to have.

All that said, I'm definitely seeing the weaknesses in the Feral + Stare Down combo. While it can be really powerful, it's also usually pretty easy to negate/mitigate with model positioning. Plus, Marcus desperately needs his (0) actions to really be affecting the game, so it tends to end with him not doing much that turn.

I guess I do really need to focus more on clubbing folks in the head.

[Rathnard]

While it's a situational spell, I've gotten some very good use out of Alpha on occasion. The three best instances that come to mind is when I Alpha'd McMourning (who went on to slaughter his own crew before I killed him myself), Bete Noir (same game as the one with McMourning), and Ashes & Dust (who killed two SPAs before using implant decay to kill itself, which in turn prevented placement of the Core & Storm due to the controlling enemy models rules in the manual).

Assuming you can get it off, losing Marcus' activation is a small price to pay for taking control of one of your opponents most powerful models for a turn. Not only do they lose an activation of their own (assuming you use Alpha before they activate...which you should), but they have to contend with the damage dealt by that model for a turn.

Any models with Use Soulstone can be very risky to Alpha, but it becomes alot easier if you can combine it with Stare Down. The on the Wp duel means their pre-soulstone flip will be alot lower than yours, tipping the odds in your favour. Of course Stare Down is a (0) action so unless you've turned the model into a beast some other way (Mx Raptor), you'll need to use Feral as your second (0) action and lose the chance to cast Wild Heart.

Speaking of which, I'm surprised you haven't used Stare Down more often UKrocky. The flip on almost everything effectively neutralises any model you've turned into a beast for a turn, and makes it extremely vulnerable to return attacks. Pair it with a Shikome, for instance, and you should be able to kill almost any model unlucky enough to be targetted.

Howl is great, but only when your opponent is relying on Wp Duels. It can wreck Pandora for a turn. Hell, if you can drop Pandora's own Wp, I'd even consider Using (0) Pack Leader to activate another beast and finish her off before she can respond. I think the best thing about it is that it can protect your entire crew. Silurid Packs can suddenly deal with terrifying models, Avatar Seamus is not nearly so scary (BTW - Alpha on ASeamus!) and other Wp-centric crews like Hamelin and Zoraida have a much harder time messing with your crew.

Feral, well, it's a way of enabling Stare Down and/or Alpha that doesn't require you to be in melee range. Nothing wrong with that.

EDIT: This Defend me vs friendly models business is a revelation - I can't believe I didn't think of it before!

That said, I think you CAN use it to switch places with the model that just charged you. It's true that a model cannot attack itself (p18), but this just means that Defend Me trigger fizzles on the last sentence ("The beast is now the target of the attack"). This doesn't prevent the previous sentence (switch places) from taking place, since each sentence is completely resolved before moving onto the next (p6, Timing).

So putting it together, it means that a friendly beast model can charge/shoot Marcus, who then triggers Defend Me and switches places with that model (provided he's in 3"). The final sentence fizzles so Marcus therefore remains the target of the attack. :smugpuppet1

Edited January 19, 2012 by Rathnard

[ukrocky]

I don't really play Marcus *that* aggressively usually though is the thing :s

I think the main issue I have with feral, is that if that's in range, then so is my (0) charge, and 99% of the time I'd just rather charge.

As for the alphas you mentioned, I doubt I'd ever do it to a ss user at it's just a soulstone off. And I thought alpha followed the same restrictions that you couldn't force a model to kill itself (Re; ashes and dust).

The negative flip I find isn't needed as I never leave myself in a position I need to use stare down for the negative flips, in that, I'm either using my 0's to do something, or I'm not allowing myself to get hit back by whatever it is I just hit.

Alpha is great vs Pandora, that's main my use for it.

[Rathnard]

I think the main issue I have with feral, is that if that's in range, then so is my (0) charge, and 99% of the time I'd just rather charge.

If you want to kill something then yeah - there's no point to Feral. For the most part I feel it's a way of enabling Alpha and possibly Stare Down (if you really don't want to engage that model in melee).

As for the alphas you mentioned, I doubt I'd ever do it to a ss user at it's just a soulstone off.

Against a Soulstone user I want to Alpha I'd try to get Feral off. If that fails I switch plans and do something else (although it may draw out a SS, which is good in itself) but otherwise I'll then use (0) Stare Down and (2) Alpha, cheating down a high (as in 11-13) masks and burning a soulstone. The to Wp will make it difficult to flip a decent starting card, making it very unlikely that their SS flip will be high enough to resist. It's a risk, of course, but the payoff is huge.

And I thought alpha followed the same restrictions that you couldn't force a model to kill itself (Re; ashes and dust).

Nope - it's a common misconception. The only limit to controlling enemy models in the rules manual is that you cannot create new models (ie. summon, replace etc) - p13.

The "No killing itself" restriction is in Obey and similar spells, but there's no mention of it in Alpha. So if a model has a "Sacrifice/Kill this model for something" spell or ability, a player using Alpha is free to use it.

[TreeNinja]

I have to say I like how you threw down your stats. I will say that most of the time I have stuck primarily with Arcanist beast and have only reacently in the last 5 games been going outside of the faction for them. I have 45+ games with Marcus and love the fact that I'm still learning his crew. To copy ukrocky my counts are:

- Alpha'd: I have pulled this off 3 times and agree its more situational and I used it more to steal the activation from my opponent then to actually kill off any of his other models.

- Primal Flame'd: only once with Marcus. I typically reserved this for the Jackalope an Myranda when I use her.

- Feral'd: 6-7 times now, pre-Avatar I much preferred to just hit them

- Howled: only once when my opponent sent a pack of Guild Hounds to surround me and I set it up to have my cerberus roar with me (man did they run)

- Stare down'd: only once in the same situation above, but I think that will change more when I pick up some Malifaux Raptors. I find this much harder as I typically find it more useful to use Marcus for my last model to activate in the turn. but its all situational.

[TreeNinja]

Rathnard I have to say that is brilliant. I have always been working with Alpha with the same idea ukrocky had. this will make my use of Alpha much more dynamic. I will have to start looking at what models this would apply too. Thank you.

[brdparker]

I will have to start looking at what models this would apply too. Thank you.

Here ya' go

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=23297

It's not perfect. I think there were some minor changes I had to make, as I was still fairly new to the game when I made this, but it'll at least give you a direction. Enjoy!

[TreeNinja]

Thanks for pointing out that thread brdparker. I missed that one and had fun reading it. I liked your approach even if it started out with some mistakes, which is I think the point of making a list like that in the first place. i think you did an amazing job in showing that Alpha can be a very devistating tool if used in the right place.