Collodi: Holding the Strings Question

[Todd]

"Holding the Strings: Friendly Marionettes within 6" may immediately activate after this model's activation ends."

Shouldn't this ability indicate whether it is a or an ?

It reads more like a might, but abilities are always considered active unless indicated otherwise. There is nothing indicating that this ability is not always active, so the aoe should follow Collodi like an (anytime a marionette is within 6" of Collodi it is being affected by the active Holding the Strings ability). However, it is not actually an . While it applies an effect to other models (they may immediately activate after Collodi), there's no reason for the model affected to lose the effect if the aoe moves, is there?

Am I missing something?

[Carse]

I don't have the card so I'm basing this entirely on what you wrote, but I would treat it as a .

[Fading Memory]

There are lots of abilities that are active in this manor without the pulse or aura symbol. These abilities just are.

Lets say a model cast an ability on Collodi or his minions that prevents him from using auras/pulses or prevents his minions from benefiting from pulses/aura. Pull Strings would still work because it is neither a pulse or aura.

Not every ability that has a set range and affects multiple models is a pulse or aura. Pandora's Emotional Trauma and The Box Opens are neither a pulse or an aura. I think this was done so they are not subject to the rules governing pulses and auras.

Does this make sense?

[Todd]

There are lots of abilities that are active in this manor without the pulse or aura symbol. These abilities just are.

Lets say a model cast an ability on Collodi or his minions that prevents him from using auras/pulses or prevents his minions from benefiting from pulses/aura. Pull Strings would still work because it is neither a pulse or aura.

Not every ability that has a set range and affects multiple models is a pulse or aura. Pandora's Emotional Trauma and The Box Opens are neither a pulse or an aura. I think this was done so they are not subject to the rules governing pulses and auras.

Does this make sense?

Of course, but it doesn't change the fact that the rule's exact function is a little unclear.

Do marionettes that were in the range of Holding the Strings at some point still get to activate after him if they aren't within range when it comes time to activate, or not? Its not an aura, so wouldn't follow the rules for only affecting models while within the aoe. Yes, you could treat it like an aura as Carse suggested, but shouldn't it technically function more like a pulse that is constantly going off? You don't stop at some point and say, I'm using Holding the Strings. You are always using it.

Right? If not, what am I missing?

[Headcase2]

The ability's timing is contained in its wording. You just measure at the end of Collodi's activation.

[Fading Memory]

The ability's timing is contained in its wording. You just measure at the end of Collodi's activation.

I've always seen it as Marionettes that are within 6" at the start of Collodi's activation. I say this because as soon as he activates Holding the Strings would take effect. The ability starts of with "Friendly Marionettes within 6 inches..." This means right from the start of Collodi's activation the Friendly Marionettes are being effected by the ability. If Holding the Strings had started out "At the end of this models activation, Friendly Marionettes within 6 inches may activate" I would agree that measurement is taken at the end of his activation.

But as it stands, measurement is taken at the start of his activation. You just declare which Marionettes you want to activate and then check range.

[Kadeton]

Without changing the wording, just change the order of the clauses:

"Holding the Strings: After this model's activation ends, friendly Marionettes within 6" may immediately activate."

and the timing becomes much clearer. The ability comes into effect after Collodi's activation ends.

[Todd]

Without changing the wording, just change the order of the clauses:

"Holding the Strings: After this model's activation ends, friendly Marionettes within 6" may immediately activate."

and the timing becomes much clearer. The ability comes into effect after Collodi's activation ends.

What? No. I don't think that works.

Without altering the rule to follow your interpretation, "after this model's activation ends" could just as easily be part of the effect as it is the application/timing of the effect (when the Marionettes get to activate, rather than when the effect is applied).

Its an ability, so its always on. Think about how it actually plays out (even your version). Read it at the beginning of Collodi's activation (Marionettes within 6" are affected/stay affected). Collodi moves. Read it again (it is still active). New/different Marionettes are affected.

To absolutely mean what you think it does, it would need to read more like, "Friendly Marionettes within 6" of this model when its activation ends may immediately activate."

It is not clear, the fact that you and Fading Memory had completely opposite interpretations of the same single sentence illustrates that.

[Omenbringer]

"Holding the Strings: Friendly Marionettes within 6" may immediately activate after this model's activation ends."

Shouldn't this ability indicate whether it is a or an ?

No it shouldn't

There is nothing indicating that this ability is not always active, so the aoe should follow Collodi like an (anytime a marionette is within 6" of Collodi it is being affected by the active Holding the Strings ability).

The ability is not always active, it is only active during Collodi's activation and resolves immediately after his activation ends.

However, it is not actually an . While it applies an effect to other models (they may immediately activate after Collodi), there's no reason for the model affected to lose the effect if the aoe moves, is there?

It isn't an AOE more like a targeted effect.

[Todd]

The ability's timing is contained in its wording. You just measure at the end of Collodi's activation.

Without changing the wording, just change the order of the clauses:

"Holding the Strings: After this model's activation ends, friendly Marionettes within 6" may immediately activate."

and the timing becomes much clearer. The ability comes into effect after Collodi's activation ends.

These posts actually got me excited (frustrated) enough about grammar to go and look up all that stuff I forgot long ago. Thanks for that :shot: !

We can use grammar to illustrate why the above interpretations are incorrect (or at least insufficient answers to my original post).

Let's break the sentence down.

"Friendly Marionettes within 6" may immediately activate after this model's activation ends."

[Friendly Marionettes within 6" may immediately activate] = main/independent clause

[after this model's activation ends.] = subordinate/dependent clause (specifically an adverbial clause)

[after] = subordinate conjunction

"Like a single-word adverb, an adverbial clause describes a verb (in the sentence's main clause) and answers one of these questions

where? why? how? when? to what degree?" (credit-some grammar website)

We know the question is when?, because of the subordinate clause after. The verb being described is obviously activate. The noun(s) is/are the Marionettes.

Therefore, the sentence is telling us when the Marionettes may activate, not when they are affected.

[Kadeton]

Without altering the rule to follow your interpretation, "after this model's activation ends" could just as easily be part of the effect as it is the application/timing of the effect (when the Marionettes get to activate, rather than when the effect is applied).

It could, but then the rule doesn't make sense. I'd prefer to go with the interpretation that is coherent and sensible.

Its an ability, so its always on. Think about how it actually plays out (even your version). Read it at the beginning of Collodi's activation (Marionettes within 6" are affected/stay affected). Collodi moves. Read it again (it is still active). New/different Marionettes are affected.

Exactly. Interpreting it this way creates ridiculous situations, whereas the timing I've indicated makes it neat and simple.

To absolutely mean what you think it does, it would need to read more like, "Friendly Marionettes within 6" of this model when its activation ends may immediately activate."

My argument is that it says exactly that, just stated differently.

It is not clear, the fact that you and Fading Memory had completely opposite interpretations of the same single sentence illustrates that.

Fading Memory's interpretation is based on some idea that abilities only go into effect when a model is activated, which is nonsense. A model's abilities are always in effect, but their timing is determined by context. In this case, the timing of the ability's resolution is explicitly stated to be at the end of Collodi's activation.

[Todd]

The ability is not always active, it is only active during Collodi's activation and resolves immediately after his activation ends.

No arguments about the resolution. Why wouldn't it be active before his activation (not that it really matters to this discussion)?

My point is that you don't pick a moment to push the "Holding the Strings" button.

It isn't an AOE more like a targeted effect.

Its not an Area Effect (:pulse/:aura), but it has an area of effect.

Are targeted effects discussed in the rules manual? Do you have any pertinent links to discussions here on the forum?

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

I like the grammar argument Todd, but, yeah, doesn't alwayswork for these rules. This game has a lot of complex rules, and the wording is just a little off. I would wait for affirmative, but my guess is omen, has the right interpretation.

[Todd]

It could, but then the rule doesn't make sense. I'd prefer to go with the interpretation that is coherent and sensible.

Exactly my point, it doesn't make sense. I'd prefer to go with a written rule that is coherent and sensible .

Exactly. Interpreting it this way creates ridiculous situations, whereas the timing I've indicated makes it neat and simple.

Yes it does. The timing you've "invented" would make it neat and simple .

My argument is that it says exactly that, just stated differently.

Looks like you posted just after my grammar break down, so you might have missed it. I think it shows that is not the case .

: (gratuitous smilies)

Not trying to be a jerk, I just don't think this rule is written clearly/properly, and haven't seen any convincing arguments to the contrary.

I like the grammar argument Todd, but, yeah, doesn't always work for these rules. This game has a lot of complex rules, and the wording is just a little off. I would wait for affirmative, but my guess is omen, has the right interpretation.

Yeah, I'm sure he's right about the intent. I don't see why they couldn't have popped a :aura6 in there for clarity.

[Kadeton]

Not trying to be a jerk, I just don't think this rule is written clearly/properly, and haven't seen any convincing arguments to the contrary.

Oh, I totally agree that it's written poorly. Regardless, it's still perfectly clear.

Your grammar argument doesn't hold up. The breakdown of the clauses is basically fine, but the conclusion is flawed.

The adverbial clause, as you noted, determines when the independent clause occurs. The verb phrase is obviously to immediately activate, and the subject(s) of that verb are Friendly Marionettes within 6". Since the timing of the verb is determined by the subordinate clause, the selection of subjects is determined by the same timing mechanism.

If I said, "Everyone in the room put your hands on your head right now," and you were outside the room but had been in it at some point in the past, would you think my instruction applied to you as well? This is how timing on subordinate clauses and selection of subjects works.

Now, replace "Everyone in the room" with "Friendly Marionettes within 6" (noun phrase), "put your hands on your head" with "immediately activate" (verb phrase), and "right now" with "after this model's activation ends" (subordinate clause). Is the timing issue cleared up for you now?

[Shank Seamus!]

Really? Really..!?

Activate collodi, his activation ends, measure 6inches from him, activate any marionettes within that 6inch area...

Simples!

[Wolfgar]

Nothing is ever simple.

Yeah, I say measure at the end of his activation. It's the most practical and precise approach.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

and are separate ability types, with specific rules. There are lots of abilities in this game that affect multiple models in a certain range that are separate from and , that work just fine.

[Todd]

Oh, I totally agree that it's written poorly. Regardless, it's still perfectly clear.

Your grammar argument doesn't hold up. The breakdown of the clauses is basically fine, but the conclusion is flawed.

The adverbial clause, as you noted, determines when the independent clause occurs. The verb phrase is obviously to immediately activate, and the subject(s) of that verb are Friendly Marionettes within 6". Since the timing of the verb is determined by the subordinate clause, the selection of subjects is determined by the same timing mechanism.

If I said, "Everyone in the room put your hands on your head right now," and you were outside the room but had been in it at some point in the past, would you think my instruction applied to you as well? This is how timing on subordinate clauses and selection of subjects works.

Now, replace "Everyone in the room" with "Friendly Marionettes within 6" (noun phrase), "put your hands on your head" with "immediately activate" (verb phrase), and "right now" with "after this model's activation ends" (subordinate clause). Is the timing issue cleared up for you now?

It usually works that way, yes. I think there are specific word usages/interactions that can change the meaning and timing. Replacing the subordinate conjunction after, with one that uses a different tense might have something to do with it. Its tricky and I don't know enough abought grammar to explain. I think this example might help. Let's change the sentence slightly.

"Everyone here throw out your christmas tree after January 1st."

You say this upon first entering a New Year's Eve party (beginning of your activation- the ability is active). You leave the party, and go to another party. The individuals who were at the first party leave it as well. You repeat the phrase at the new party (still active). January 1st arrives (activation ends). Here it is where it gets messy. Those individuals who were at the first party are still obliged to throw out their christmas tree after January 1st, right. The same goes for those who were at the second party. You wouldn't go home and think, "ha, I don't have to listen to Kadeton, I'm not at that party anymore. December forever!"

There are situations (certain phrase/tense combinations) where a disconnect occurs between the targeting and the timing.

@Everyone Else: My op wasn't meant to be a question about intent. Obviously, it works best if used like an aura at the end of Collodi's activation. I just felt like the rule did a very poor job of conveying this intent. Taking an apologist stance in these situations will get you by, but doesn't lead to clearer rules writing down the road.

I find these types of discussions interesting. I'm sure Kadeton does too, otherwise he wouldn't bother to participate in the grammar debate.

[von Clausewitz]

RM12, Abilities: A model's abilities are always considered active during the game unless otherwise indicated and are applied whenever called for in the rules.

Holding the strings is always active. It is applied when called for in the rules (after collodi's activation). When it is applied, check the range. All marionettes within range at the time of application may receive the effect.

[Todd]

RM12, Abilities: A model's abilities are always considered active during the game unless otherwise indicated and are applied whenever called for in the rules.

Holding the strings is always active. It is applied when called for in the rules (after collodi's activation). When it is applied, check the range. All marionettes within range at the time of application may receive the effect.

That's the problem. If you assume the adverbial clause is describing the verb activate (which is grammatically correct), you lose the timing application. My argument is there is no clear declaration of application of effects within the rule, only the implied timing of when we resolve the effects. When Collodi's actiavtion ends, we only know we're supposed to activate affected Marionettes. The sentence is trying to do too much.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Todd
spelling

[Kadeton]

I find these types of discussions interesting. I'm sure Kadeton does too, otherwise he wouldn't bother to participate in the grammar debate.

I sure do. And your example was a very good one! I think you're right that using "after" muddies the usual timing cues of adverbial clauses.

I think we'd all like to see clearer rules. However, I've certainly noticed that in games where the rules are more precise, the arguments don't go away - they just focus on the specific usage of certain words and grammatical nuance. In 40k, the rules are so loose that the arguments are about how things are even supposed to work, whereas at least in Malifaux most people can usually agree on what the intended effect is. Plus, we have access to Rules Marshals who can clear things up.

That's not to say I'm necessarily apologist about it, I'm just still in a stage where I'm overjoyed that most of the rules of the game make even a rudimentary kind of sense... except for all the Damage nonsense that comes up constantly.

[Todd]

I sure do. And your example was a very good one! I think you're right that using "after" muddies the usual timing cues of adverbial clauses.

I think we'd all like to see clearer rules. However, I've certainly noticed that in games where the rules are more precise, the arguments don't go away - they just focus on the specific usage of certain words and grammatical nuance. In 40k, the rules are so loose that the arguments are about how things are even supposed to work, whereas at least in Malifaux most people can usually agree on what the intended effect is. Plus, we have access to Rules Marshals who can clear things up.

That's not to say I'm necessarily apologist about it, I'm just still in a stage where I'm overjoyed that most of the rules of the game make even a rudimentary kind of sense... except for all the Damage nonsense that comes up constantly.

Agreed. I actually appreciate how well the rules are written compared to other games.

Yeah, damage/wounds seems to cause a lot of issues, but even that I can see them sorting out fairly easily at some point in the future. If that's the worst thing we have to deal with, the game is in pretty good shape.

[Todd]

It usually works that way, yes. I think there are specific word usages/interactions that can change the meaning and timing. Replacing the subordinate conjunction after, with one that uses a different tense might have something to do with it. Its tricky and I don't know enough abought grammar to explain. I think this example might help. Let's change the sentence slightly.

"Everyone here throw out your christmas tree after January 1st."

You say this upon first entering a New Year's Eve party (beginning of your activation- the ability is active). You leave the party, and go to another party. The individuals who were at the first party leave it as well. You repeat the phrase at the new party (still active). January 1st arrives (activation ends). Here it is where it gets messy. Those individuals who were at the first party are still obliged to throw out their christmas tree after January 1st, right. The same goes for those who were at the second party. You wouldn't go home and think, "ha, I don't have to listen to Kadeton, I'm not at that party anymore. December forever!"

There are situations (certain phrase/tense combinations) where a disconnect occurs between the targeting and the timing.

One last thing before I go and actually play some Malifaux.

I'd like to revisit my New Years party example.

"Everyone here throw out your christmas tree after January 1st."

Same basic sentence structure as Holding the Strings. Let's treat it as we would a game rule.

With Holding the Strings, we're trying to figure out when Marionettes need to be within 6" of Collodi to be effected. Similarly, with the New Years "rule" we need to know when everyone needs to be in the same location (here) as the speaker.

In order to figure this out, lets apply the same logic that most are using to determine the timing/application of Holding the Strings. We look to the adverbial clause.

"after this model's activation ends" = When the marionettes need to be within 6" of Collodi (according to how everyone seems to agree it should be played)

vs.

"after January 1st"

Now, you wouldn't look at the New Year's example and assume the speaker intends for only people still present at the party with him/her after January 1st to throw out there christmas trees, right?

[Q'iq'el]

Therefore, the sentence is telling us when the Marionettes may activate, not when they are affected.

Of course.

So what solves the issue is the general rule for all the abilities. You can find it on the page 12, under abilities.

1. Abilities are always active.

2. Abilities are applied when called for in the rules.

This is straight forward. The application requires some getting used to the logics behind Malifaux' rules.

You call for the ability when you want to activate your Marionettes, because it is this ability which makes it possible for them to go immediately after Collodi.

You activate them after he finishes his activation.

Therefore the ability is being applied after he finishes his activation and that is when you measure the distance as well.

[von Clausewitz]

Of course.

So what solves the issue is the general rule for all the abilities. You can find it on the page 12, under abilities.

1. Abilities are always active.

2. Abilities are applied when called for in the rules.

This is straight forward. The application requires some getting used to the logics behind Malifaux' rules.

You call for the ability when you want to activate your Marionettes, because it is this ability which makes it possible for them to go immediately after Collodi.

You activate them after he finishes his activation.

Therefore the ability is being applied after he finishes his activation and that is when you measure the distance as well.

Excellent clarification Q'iq'el, this is precisely what I was attempting to describe in my earlier post, your post breaks it down slightly better than mine though.