Bad Juju: From the Earth question

[CannonFodder]

From the Earth: Do not deploy this model at the start of the game. Instead, when you would activate a model you may summon this model to anywhere on the table that is at least 7” from an enemy model. If this model is not summoned by the 4th turn, it counts as killed for VP purposes and can no longer be deployed.

Lets say you are playing a game and you have 5 models plus Bad Juju, and you opponent has 8 models (assume no companion). Are you allowed to activate your 5 models and your opponent activates his 8 models, then summon Bad Juju after everything has activated. Or do you have to take a pass action with Bad Juju after you do the first 5 activations, before you opponent has activated all his figs.

If you have need to take a pass action with Juju as your 6th activation, can you take a pass action with Juju as you first letting the rest of your army stall?

[Cunning]

JuJu can't pass if he's not on the table.

You would have to summon him at your 6th activation at the latest if you want to summon him that turn. He would then be able to activate as your 7th activation.

[poulpox]

I've always played Juju like this: once your 5 models have activated, when it would be your turn to activate again, if you want to bring Juju this turn there's no choice but summon him then and there, you can't wait until your opponent has finished all his activations (This makes Juju's placement something to think about as he might get blown away before he activates). He doesn't activate straight away however he is just summoned, then your opponent activates one+ model, then Juju activate and is Slow due to the summoning.

EDIT: Ninjaaaa'd

[gnam]

Oh, I always thought you could activate the Bad Juju when you summoned him... So you need to summon him and that's all you do for an activation?

Good to know!

[CannonFodder]

If a player has no models left to activate but other players do, that player's activation turn is skipped.

I checked the rule book since posting and found this line. If literally taken, Juju can't enter as you 6th activation, since its not in play, and you turn is skipped from not having models left to activate in play. You would need to summon him as your second to last model in order to summon him.

Has there been any other ruling on Juju that I should know about, otherwise I just can't see him being worth 10 points. I figured with some action passing potential, or guaranteed last activation you can do something. Right now I see him as being little more playable than Bishop.

If a Rule Marshal can confirm this I would appreciate it.

[micahwc]

We have always played it that if I have 5 models + bad juju that bad juju may be my 6th activation if I choose, but if I don't then he can't come until the next turn.

[magicpockets]

I checked the rule book since posting and found this line. If literally taken, Juju can't enter as you 6th activation, since its not in play, and you turn is skipped from not having models left to activate in play. You would need to summon him as your second to last model in order to summon him.

Has there been any other ruling on Juju that I should know about, otherwise I just can't see him being worth 10 points. I figured with some action passing potential, or guaranteed last activation you can do something. Right now I see him as being little more playable than Bishop.

If a Rule Marshal can confirm this I would appreciate it.

As ever, model specific rules would trump general rules. Juju can come in as your "last" activation (but you can't "pass" activations and bring I'm on later) a this would be when you "would" summon a model (if you had one)

[Todd]

I disagree.

I'm sure they're going to say you can't (just because), but I don't see anything in the rules that would prevent you from waiting on an opponent who's out activating you.

If you don't have any models to activate, you don't get skipped permanently, just every time alternating activation comes back to you and you don't have any models in play. You can get skipped a million-billion times, have an effect put an un-activated model into play under your control, and then all of the sudden have something to activate, right?

"If a player has models to activate, that player must activate one when it is his or her turn to do so." However, Bad-juju is not in play, so he doesn't have to activate, right? He can't activate, he's not in play. He has an ability that you may use to summon him into play, making him eligible for activation, but there's nothing forcing you to use that ability.

You may summon him "When you would activate a model."

"When you would activate a model" = anytime after your opponent has activated a model (due to alternating activation).

[Todd]

Just wanted to add that I don't mean that you can wait until after an opponent who's out-activated you has been skipped for having no models in play. I think any other point during their activations (and after you've run out of models in play) would be fair game.

[Keltheos]

Here's the situation with Juju, since players alternate activating models until they don't have any left in play that have not yet activated, playing the waiting game with Juju is a dangerous stratagem. Once your opponent has completed his last model's activation neither of you have models left in play that need activating so the round ends. That's how the activation sequence works, so there's no 'but wait, now I get to Summon model X and then activate it.'

So at some point during your opponent's extra activations you need to Summon Juju or you're out of luck.

I'll be conferring with the other Marshals on this. Juju breaks the activation sequence rules with his Summoning into play, so for now you can pass activations with him until you choose to Summon, BUT if you and your opponent have no more models in play the Turn ends, not after you get a last gasp Summon to bring him in.

[magicpockets]

That is a brilliant ruling. "okay, play it like this whilst I get a definite answer"

More like this please!

[Keltheos]

Is this another sarcastic response? I can't tell what significance the smiley face has.

[magicpockets]

Is this another sarcastic response? I can't tell what significance the smiley face has.

No, not sarcastic at all. I love this answer and wish we could get more like it. Being able to have a "way to play" until it's officially resolved (which can take a long time - 6 months for the reactivate ruling) helps so much.

And the smiley face was a sign of appreciation!

[Keltheos]

Well, that's one of my New Wyrd Resolutions for the Rules Forum. Give you a stopgap while we're in discussion on a topic.

[Wolfgar]

Just so long as it's not meant to be permanent solution.

[CannonFodder]

its much appreaciated, so With bad juju you can in theory do the waiting game and summon him when your opponent has 1 model left to activate then summon him. Your opponent has 1 model to do something but if played right should be out of reach.

a counter to this is to activate the your last 2 models together with companion or other means, leaving no models on your side left to activate ending the turn before your opponent can summon him.

FYI: I Love you new years resolution. Even if its a stop gap it allows us to have a set of rules to follow.

[Keltheos]

Right, there's some tactical benefits to the waiting game with Juju, but it can backfire if your opponent's paying attention and locks you out before you can act.

[kasul]

I have a related question to this that has come up in our games.

Regardless of when Bad Juju comes out, does the act of summoning him (only) count as the player's activation? RAW, it doesn't say to skip the activation step and I read it that the summoning is simply something that happens as/before you activate a model.

I have seen it played both ways (well, 3 ways really)

1) Summon bad juju, turn passes to opponent. Next activation, activate Bad juju.

2) Summon, and then activate Bad juju on the same activation

2.1) Summon, then activate a different model, on the same activation.

Which method is correct?

[Todd]

That's a good question, I can't comment on the rules intent, but...

-From the Earth says, "when you would activate...", nowhere does it say instead of activating, or that you can't activate something.

-The rules manual says, If you have models to activate, you must do so.

-From the Earth doesn't say you have to activate Bad Juju.

RAW: Summon BJ, Activate something (if you choose BJ, remember he is slow due to summoning).

You should probably wait for a Rules Marshal though.

[Wolfgar]

I think Todd has it on this one.

[magicpockets]

This has been ruled before, summoning Bad JuJu counts as your activation. So you summon,opponent goes, you activate Juju

And re a post above, after summoning Bad JuJu you will be out of range of a melted attack but in range for landslide after a 4" move

[kasul]

This has been ruled before, summoning Bad JuJu counts as your activation. So you summon,opponent goes, you activate Juju

Has it? I couldn't find that.

I think we are still waiting on an official ruling to the original question though. (I know we got a stop-gap for now, but didn't want this to get lost in the shuffle.)