Madame Sybelle Alpha Strike Question

[ravenborne]

So I've read about the R Belle/M Sybelle alpha strike, so apparently you can activate all your R belles at once, but when I read over the rulebook I don't get how its legal.

As I read Companion, it says "Before activating a model with Companion..."

In this case, only the belles have Companion, Madame Sybelle does not, so as I understand it one would have to activate a R Belle first. Then you could choose to activate either Sybelle or the R belle, but not other R belles...

Is activating all these Belles together legal and if so how?

[ravenborne]

Just found this in the rules thread...

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20074&highlight=sybelle

...and it still doesn't make sense. The poster Lister interprets the rule the way I did, so I don't get why it works.

Edited January 2, 2012 by ravenborne

[dsmiles]

It's the same way you activate your totem when you activate your master. Totems have Companion [Master], but masters don't need Companion [Totem] for the totem to activate simultaneously.

[ravenborne]

I guess, but that makes the wording in the book incorrect then, because it says that "Before activating a model with Companion" and the Master does not have Companion (Totem).

The reason a Master - Totem works is because there are only two models involved, so by the rulebook wording, you would activate the totem (as he has the Companion ability) and then you could choose which one goes first.

The parallel would be a Belle activating, then Sybelle can choose to go first, but since she isn't the one that activated, the other Belles don't get to go.

The only way this would work is if there is some ruling or unwritten rule that clarifies the rulebook, and essentially says "consider the corresponding model to have companion to the activating model type" or whatever, you get the idea.

Not trying to over analyze this, but just going by the book wording it doesn't seem to work. If its been ruled otherwise fine, but I have yet to see an official rules person explain rule on it.

[Twisted Metal]

All of the rotten bells within 6 inches of sybelle have companion. They can all simultaneously companion sybelle which causes the alpha strike. Your not just picking one model to start the companion chain with. You look at all the models at the same time and declare they are all going to companion as a group.

[Kaled]

I've not yet played a game of Malifaux, but perhaps I could try to explain (in part to check that my understanding is correct).

You don't activate one model, then see who that model can Companion with. Instead the declaration of a group happens "Before activating a model with Companion...". So at this point (i.e. before activating a model) you instead declare a group of models with Companion or the corresponding Characteristic who are within 6" of each other. Only then do you actually activate one of the models in the nominated group, and then activate the next and so on.

It is a confusingly worded rule - I too had the same thoughts when I read it before coming here. But then realised it was just me who was reading it wrongly.

That's assuming my reasoning and interpretation is correct - can someone confirm that please?

[osoi]

You pretty well have it Kaled the example used in the Rules Manual clarfies it a lot, companion can be a little confusing at first.

The maximum amount of models you can get out of the Seamus companion chain though is 4 (Totem [companion Seamus], Seamus [Womaniser], Rotten Belle [companion Sybelle] and lastly Sybelle) Womaniser isnt a 'true' comapainon though but gives the aplha strike/mass activation it just limits the order of how your models activate a little.

[Pierowmaniac]

You pretty well have it Kaled the example used in the Rules Manual clarfies it a lot, companion can be a little confusing at first.

The maximum amount of models you can get out of the Seamus companion chain though is 4 (Totem [companion Seamus], Seamus [Womaniser], Rotten Belle [companion Sybelle] and lastly Sybelle) Womaniser isnt a 'true' comapainon though but gives the aplha strike/mass activation it just limits the order of how your models activate a little.

Thats pretty much how I read and understand it and I also think that's hown the OP understands it.

What seems to be confusing is that some people are saying (see the linked thread in the 2nd post) that you can companion ALL your belles with Sybelle at the same time. Ive heard it described like that somewhere else before but unfortunatly I can't remember where.

I can't logicaly see hown you can get ALL belles to companion Sybelle

[ravenborne]

Thats what I am saying...exactly osoi's explanation. According to the way I read it, you cannot companion all your belles together at once.

The rulebook example clarifies the companion explanation clearly, understanding it is not the issue. But in that example, all the models have the "corresponding characteristic".

Its specifically the wording of the Companion ability. All of the models do not have companion (sybelle does not) and all of the models do not have the corresponding characteristic, only one of the models does (sybelle).

Edited January 3, 2012 by ravenborne
Further explanation

[Golden]

I play Seamus, this may help if I run through it for you. Lets just say all models are in range of one another for this to happen. Seamus activates first, companioning the Totem(whichever one you choose). You go through the totems AP first then Seamus' or vice versa, during his activation you choose the (0) act Womanizer targetting Sybelle which states that she activates after Seamus activation ends. As Sybelle activates you anounce companion with any Rotten Belles within 6" of her because the Belles have companion Sybelle, meaning that the condition for companion is met only when Sybelle activates. You then can go through all of their activations one after another. Should you have chosen to go thru Seamus' AP before the totem's, now, after Sybelle and the Belles have gone it would be time for the Totem to go.

[ravenborne]

As Sybelle activates you anounce companion with any Rotten Belles within 6" of her because the Belles have companion Sybelle, meaning that the condition for companion is met only when Sybelle activates.

I am am Seamus player and I so want this to be the way it works, but as I read the companion ability it would not work. Sybelle does not have Companion so she does not meet the condition necessary, because companion states it states it works when you activate a model with the companion ability. Wish we could get a final ruling on this.

Edited January 6, 2012 by ravenborne

[Q'iq'el]

I am am Seamus player and I so want this to be the way it works, but as I read the companion ability it would not work. Sybelle does not have Companion so she does not meet the condition necessary, because companion states it states it works when you activate a model with the companion ability. Wish we could get a final ruling on this.

There is a final ruling on this. Yes it works.

Read the Companion rules carefuly, having the following explenation in mind, and you'll see where you got the meaning wrong.

Rules for the Companion ask you to select all the models you want to Simultaneously Activate before you activate them, and then point at the enabling model with Companion ability, which "enables" the Simultaneous activation. Only after that the activation actually start. According to the past rulings, there is no limit as to how many "enablers" you use - as long as they can Companion the models you've selected, they can be pointed at.

Because there is no order to this (it happens before activation, so out of normal timeline), there is no need for the models to Companion others in specific order. What must happen is proper coherency between all the models involved. It is somewhat more complex than 40K coherency, but the idea is essentially the same - if the grid of models fulfills the requirement, they can all go together.

This is also the mechanic behind chain-companioning extended groups:

B can companion A. A has no companion rule:

A1 - 4" - B1 - 4" - A2 - 4" - B2 - 4" - A3

This group is spread over 21" long, but they can all simultaneously activate. You select A1~3, and then you point at B1~3 as the models who Companion them... since all B models are within 6" of the A models they Companion, the chain works and the group Simultaneously activates.

This however wouldn't work:

A1 - 4" - B1 - 4" - B2 - 4" - A2 - 4" - A3

Here we have two distinct groups. A2 can SA with B2 and A1 with B1, but B1 cannot point at B2 (no Companion) and A1 is too far from B2 to point at it, just like A2 is too far from B1. A3 is out of range altogether.

A straight line is, of course a simplistic and extreme example. In a real game it is much easier to ensure all the models are within the right distance to those who can Companion them.

In other words, as poor style as it may be, it is a verb "to companion", not a noun "his companion".

In other words in case of Sybelle it works like this:

1. Select Sybelle.

2. Say I'm Simultaneously Activate Sybelle using Belles 1, 2, and 3 within 6" from her.

3. Simultaneously Activate.

What this restricts is activation of Belles further than 6" away from Sybelle, as they cannot be used to Simultaneously Activate Sybelle.

In more typical chains it is easier to chain up multiple models, as you can "bridge" the gaps between group of models, if you place them right... but you have only one Sybelle so it cannot work.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Q'iq'el

[ravenborne]

I can live with the ruling, even though I think in the case of the Sybelle/Belle companion group its an awful stretch to make it follow the rule as its written. Several others have made this case, so I am not sure if people see the counter argument, or if they are just saying "its been ruled this way get over it".

I can totally go with "its been ruled this way" but this can be a real problem in games when you have to try and explain to your opponent that yes, its legal for you to drag Nino across the board and kill him in one activation, even though the companion rule does not seem to support it. As long as the local tournament organizer is OK with the ruling and can back ti up, then I will be abusing it.

[Oshova]

It had been ruled that way, so that's the way it works. Yes the wording could be a bit clearer, but essentialy once you get your head round the fact that Companion works in both directions, then you're fine. Just because Sybelle doesn't have Companion (Belles) on her card, doesn't mean she can't be Companioned by more than 1 model a turn.

Another example is Hamelin with Guild Hounds and a Totem. They can all Companion in 1 turn through Hamelin (due to Companion (Master)).

It's just getting your head round the fact that the rules aren't worded 100% correctly in this case. But hopefully when Rules Manual V2 comes out, we will take another leap towards having a more fluent set of rules.

[Pierowmaniac]

There is a final ruling on this. Yes it works.

Read the Companion rules carefuly, having the following explenation in mind, and you'll see where you got the meaning wrong.

Rules for the Companion ask you to select all the models you want to Simultaneously Activate before you activate them, and then point at the enabling model with Companion ability, which "enables" the Simultaneous activation. Only after that the activation actually start. According to the past rulings, there is no limit as to how many "enablers" you use - as long as they can Companion the models you've selected, they can be pointed at.

Because there is no order to this (it happens before activation, so out of normal timeline), there is no need for the models to Companion others in specific order. What must happen is proper coherency between all the models involved. It is somewhat more complex than 40K coherency, but the idea is essentially the same - if the grid of models fulfills the requirement, they can all go together.

This is also the mechanic behind chain-companioning extended groups:

B can companion A. A has no companion rule:

A1 - 4" - B1 - 4" - A2 - 4" - B2 - 4" - A3

This group is spread over 21" long, but they can all simultaneously activate. You select A1~3, and then you point at B1~3 as the models who Companion them... since all B models are within 6" of the A models they Companion, the chain works and the group Simultaneously activates.

This however wouldn't work:

A1 - 4" - B1 - 4" - B2 - 4" - A2 - 4" - A3

Here we have two distinct groups. A2 can SA with B2 and A1 with B1, but B1 cannot point at B2 (no Companion) and A1 is too far from B2 to point at it, just like A2 is too far from B1. A3 is out of range altogether.

A straight line is, of course a simplistic and extreme example. In a real game it is much easier to ensure all the models are within the right distance to those who can Companion them.

In other words, as poor style as it may be, it is a verb "to companion", not a noun "his companion".

In other words in case of Sybelle it works like this:

1. Select Sybelle.

2. Say I'm Simultaneously Activate Sybelle using Belles 1, 2, and 3 within 6" from her.

3. Simultaneously Activate.

What this restricts is activation of Belles further than 6" away from Sybelle, as they cannot be used to Simultaneously Activate Sybelle.

In more typical chains it is easier to chain up multiple models, as you can "bridge" the gaps between group of models, if you place them right... but you have only one Sybelle so it cannot work.

Thanks for that explanation. That did clear it up in my mind. but like Ravenborne said Its going to be hard to explain that to another new player with just the rule books for reference