Hardest Master to master?

[rancor709]

I think personal playstyle has a lot to do with this. Everyone will play masters and adapt to masters differently as in any war game. For me combat oriented masters are harder to wrap my head around then support casters. As to me having fewer catch all abilities is harder to do well with than having a billion things you can do with a master in any situation. The inherent complexity of simplicity is to me most difficult to master as if I and my opponent know my plan than I have a more difficult task executing it. This is not a discussion of weakness or if a master sucks its about how difficult it is to master a master.

[Q'iq'el]

Sorry, still not sure what you mean here, I don't think Lilith plays anything like Marcus, and the choice of minions does completely change the way your crew deals with the strategies for Marcus.

Sorry!

First, as I said my experience with Marcus is limited just to few games against him - I might have gotten off with a completely wrong impression.

But then, I also think you are speaking of particulars, while I'm speaking of the general feel of the crew.

For example, for me Showgirls are the ultimate Sleight of Hand crew. When I'm playing them, I'm working hard to hide my intentions - I'm pushing forward where it matters less, to force my opponents hand, then swapping everything around to suddenly gain superiority where it really matters to me and where he is left unprepared. I generally feel crews that play like this are relatively easy to master - once you learn the moves you need an experienced opponent to counter all your plans.

Nicodem is a formation play master for me - you are not giving anyone a chase, you are not outfighting them 1:1 and you won't be first to the objectives... but you can move together in formation where models support each other, heal each other, hit back at the attackers and you are very hard to push back from the space you've managed to occupy.

But Nicodem is also a master where the crew's style changes with minions - that's because the master himself is less relevant and the minions he buffs do the job. So he can be played more sleight-of-hand-style with Molly, Belles and Crooligans or he can go all-summoner with heavy load of Canine Remains (doesn't matter I think it's a misunderstanding ).

Lilith has a positioning crew. Sure, it makes a difference when you are damage heavy or when you have more positioning tools with Lures and such, but in the end she fights by positioning her minions carefully, moving them precisely up to fractions of an inch, so that the opponent, no matter where he moves, has to face a threat... and so that you can quickly bring more models to bear in that area. It is a tic-tac-toe way of playing the game, if you want.

This is also why Waldgeist, even though not Nephilim, have always been considered such a strong choice for Lilith - if there are large forests on the table, they become the most powerful table-control minion she can take.

From my narrow experience, on this most general level, Marcus seems similar. But that might just have been the way my opponent played him. There are some really fast models he can take, and some lumbering hulks, but in the end nobody is teleporting across the table or swapping his minions for something else. I always thought it telling, that Waldgeist are/were considered such a strong choice for Marcus and I thought it's because in the end he plays similar game to Lilith.

That is not to say using similar tools or methods. Just the same concepts of funneling opponents, denying table quarters, blocking movement and threatening positions - something neither Nicodem or Colette, for example, can do in the same degree (well, Nicodem can deny table quarters or threaten positions, but the opponent can see it coming 2~3 turns ahead. ).

[Nephalumps]

Sorry, not tryna troll, but I don't really understand how Lilith becomes an engine of destruction courtesy of the wealth of options, when Marcus surely has more?

Not a troll at all.

I kind of phrased that wrong: its not so much the wealth of options available to Lilith (Marcus has so many more crew options than her its not even funny,) but the fact that the minions I'm taking each bring a lot of options to the table, so the sum is a crew that has a lot of shenanigans available to it, while not being gimmicky.

Granted, a big part of that is how borked the twins are (though I only ever bring one pair,) but when you combine strong Minions that have multiple options per activation with a reasonably flexible Master, you end up with a crew that is much overall much more adaptable turn by turn.

As you said, half the battle with Marcus is choosing the right crew during set up. A big part of that is that, while he has a huge crew selection, his Minion choices are relatively inflexible. That, in turn, makes Marcus harder to master, because not only are you juggling his abilities and the abilities of his crew, but you're also having to learn the harsh lessons of which Minions work well in each scenario.

It's a steeper learning curve than what I'm seeing with Lilith, because with her I can bring pretty much the same crew to every fight and at least feel like I have most of my bases covered.

[Foton]

I believe all Neverborn Masters/Henchman, with the exception of Lillith, take some knowledge and practice in learning. It's a very casty faction. And relies heavily on Minion Synergy.

Lady J and Viktorias are probably 2 of the easiest to learn.

[*Jack*]

This thread reminds me of the song "Hardest button to button"

But I think rezzer masters can be difficult to get quite right, I've played mcmourning and nicodem and think I have loads to learn for both of them :L