Menace Question

[Morgan Vening]

Was watching a game recently with a lot of Menace capable models (Guild Captain and 3 Guild Guards). And a question came up regarding Menace.

If it's successfully cast, but also successfully resisted, does the movement portion of the spell still take effect?

(1) Menace

(CC: 10/Rst: Wp/Rg: 6) Move this model up to 4” toward target model. Target may not take move Actions unil the Start Closing Phase.

The discussion came about because the Rules Manual says

If the resisting model's final Duel total is greater than the casting total, the resisting model has won the Duel, and succesfully resisted the Spell, avoiding it's effects.

The discussion centered around the following points.

• Menace's first effect doesn't actually affect the target. It just sets criteria for the acting model's movement.
  
• Resisting doesn't cancel the spell, just stops it affecting the target.
  
• Menace, given it's limitations (requires a target within 6", has ~37% chance of failing) seems pretty weak if resisting it also stops the movement as well.
  

I honestly had no idea when asked, but it seemed like a question worth asking about.

Morgan Vening

[JuJubee]

Before you can make the move the spell has to be successfully cast. if its resisted then none of the parts can be done unless otherwise stated so. Such as avatar seamus where even where as his fists slow when resisted.

[Kadeton]

My initial reaction would be that if a spell is resisted, it fails along with all its effects. Menace is a particularly weird spell, because it feels wrong that the movement is part of the effect on the target, but I feel that is what is happening. Here's a bit more from the Rules Manual, p. 51:

If the spell requires a Resist Duel, after the acting model wins the Casting Duel, any models who would be affected must perform a Resist Duel against the casting total to resist its effects.

If the movement is a result of the spell's effect on the target, then it will be prevented by a successful Resist. If it's considered an effect on the caster, then it won't, but the caster will also have to make a Resist Duel against his own spell (which he can voluntarily fail).

Interested to see how this one comes out. Are there any other spells that create similar problems?

[Adran]

I'm certain the walk is part of the spells effects, and so a sucessful resist will stop it happening.

[Morgan Vening]

Before you can make the move the spell has to be successfully cast. if its resisted then none of the parts can be done unless otherwise stated so. Such as avatar seamus where even where as his fists slow when resisted.

But that's where the distinction seems to lie. The Rulebook on pg50-54 explicitly says for the spell to be successfully cast, it needs to equal or exceed the TN. Resist also explicitly states it is done AFTER the spell has been successfully cast, and that if successfully resisted, "avoiding it's [the spell's] effects". As the first sentence of Menace has no effect on the target, would it count?

I'm certain the walk is part of the spells effects, and so a sucessful resist will stop it happening.

That was my initial reaction. I initially interpreted the vague wording of Resist to be a get-around for spells that affect multiple models (so that one Resist didn't counter the spell completely). But now I'm not so sure.

Morgan Vening

[Mr_Smigs]

if you look around, there are multiple rules about abilities...

and all the rulings come out the same

if any part of a spell/ability fails, the whole ability fails. (there are ones like Ashes and Dust's latest discussion where it's linked/mentioned)

[Morgan Vening]

if you look around, there are multiple rules about abilities...

and all the rulings come out the same

if any part of a spell/ability fails, the whole ability fails. (there are ones like Ashes and Dust's latest discussion where it's linked/mentioned)

But it's not an action failing. The action is successful, and it's a Resist check to see if the opponent is affected. That doesn't eliminate the effect completely. Undead Psychosis (Seamus) doesn't fail if the "target" successfully resists. Each other additional model still requires testing. I know it's a different situation, but then again, the wording for Menace does seem to be relatively different too.

I'm not saying it should work, or will be ruled to work (or even that I think it should/will), but the current wording for the ability and the rules governing spells and resists, don't exclude this possible interpretation.

And with the models that actually have Menace (Guild Captain excluded), most models aren't ever going to attempt it. Hard pressed to see Taelor ever go for it.

Morgan Vening

[Mr_Smigs]

the action is not successful unless it fully resolves.

the activation of the action is successful, but the resolution is not.

therefor none of the parts function.

[Mr_Smigs]

As per the rules on pg 13:

Since this is a SINGLE action you can't perform half an action. You perform the whole action or not at all. Therefore as outlined on pg 13

Since you can't perform the replace you are unable to perform the action.

there you go, the official ruling.

no half-actions.

[Sandwich]

You're not fully understand the way a Spell functions.

The "Successful Cast" of a spell ONLY comes into effect if the spell has no resist (Molly's (1)Imbue Vigor).

However, even if a Spell's CC is successfully reached by a casting model, part of a Spell Duel is the Resisting Model's flip, which dictates the success of the spell.

The model isn't resisting the portion of the Spell that only affects it, the Model is resisting the entire sequence the spell would initiate.

[Morgan Vening]

there you go, the official ruling.

no half-actions.

I disagree that it's the same thing. By that ruling, Levi's Entropic Transformation being resisted would do no Wounds to Levi. And Pandora's Project Emotions, or Seamus's Undead Psychosis would both fail completely if one model resisted (it partly failed, so it all must fail?). And these claims would be false. Levi in particular falls under the "Additional Casting Requirements" section. That raises another issue, was the Rulebook printed before or after Menace was revised for V2? Is it possible the first sentence of Menace should be 'AR:'?

But regardless, there's a different rules set at play, that the Action ruling you mentioned, doesn't cover. "You perform the whole action, or not at all". The Guild Guard is performing the whole action. That the opposing model succeeds at resisting, "avoiding it's effects", doesn't change the fact that the spell was successful (as per the definitions of success in the Magic section). It's not quite apples and oranges, but definitely lemons and oranges.

Most spells are fairly explicit in not allowing "non-targetted" effects to function if the target resisted the targetted portion. Lure is a good example of this (attack only happens IF the targetted model was pushed). I'm just wanting to know if the wording for Menace (in particular), is intentional in that regard, or if it's not intended to function that way.

I'm pretty sure the ruling will bear out what most here (including myself) have thought, but several have also expressed doubts. That's enough in my mind to push for a specific ruling on this.

On a side note, I think it makes perfect sense from a 'realism' perspective that the move is part of the cast, rather than an effect. Taelor advances (up to 4") menacingly towards the enemy, and they resist (or not) being paralyzed with fear.

Morgan Vening

[Morgan Vening]

The model isn't resisting the portion of the Spell that only affects it, the Model is resisting the entire sequence the spell would initiate.

That may be the intention, and the way it'll be ruled, but that's not what the Rules Manual says. Throughout the Magic section, it continually refers to a Resisting Model avoiding the effects of the spell, not cancelling it. It's possible that this was worded the way it is intentionally, or it's an oversight (to avoid the multi-affected spells like Undead Psychosis) that'll be corrected.

There have been plenty of Rulebook wordings that have held up "as written", and other examples of mechanics tricks that have been proven legitimate.

I'm just not sure if the wording here is intentional, and Menace is a generally useful spell, or if it's not, and it's relegated to the Pine Box "once in a blue moon, if the stars align, and the situation demands it" bin.

I don't mind either way, but I do want to know before I actually field my Lucius gang, that I'm not getting shortchanged like Dreamer players (for example) not getting the most out of the Nightmare/Bury shenanigans.

Also, I promised the guys who brought this to my attention, that I'd ask for a definitive answer.

Morgan Vening

[Q'iq'el]

I disagree that it's the same thing. By that ruling, Levi's Entropic Transformation being resisted would do no Wounds to Levi.

That's exactly how it works. If Entropic Trasnformation is resisted, Levi suffers no wounds.

It is the same for all the spells that require you to pay a Soulstone to cast, to Sacrifice a Corpse Counter or Scrap Counter or Blood Counter... if the spell is resisted for any reason, the Counters, Soulstones, Wounds, Control Cards etc. are not spent. (Action points on the other hand are lost, because you spent them beforehand in order to initiate Cast action)

Spells that have multiple targets success if at least one of the targets failed its resist, so it is not a problem of having effects partially applied, but rather of having all the effects applied to only part of the targets.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Q'iq'el]

That may be the intention, and the way it'll be ruled, but that's not what the Rules Manual says. Throughout the Magic section, it continually refers to a Resisting Model avoiding the effects of the spell, not cancelling it. It's possible that this was worded the way it is intentionally, or it's an oversight (to avoid the multi-affected spells like Undead Psychosis) that'll be corrected.

What you are missing is the meaning and importance of the first sentence of the "Apply Spell Effects" rule on the page 54.

You Apply the effects if the spell is successful. Ergo, if the spell is not successful, you Apply no effects.

This sentence is not about resisting target etc. It's about the spell as a whole.

[Mr_Smigs]

That's exactly how it works. If Entropic Trasnformation is resisted, Levi suffers no wounds.

can you cite ruling otherwise?

It is the same for all the spells that require you to pay a Soulstone to cast, to Sacrifice a Corpse Counter or Scrap Counter or Blood Counter... if the spell is resisted for any reason, the Counters, Soulstones, Wounds, Control Cards etc. are not spent. (Action points on the other hand are lost, because you spent them beforehand in order to initiate Cast action)

I've seen this ruling brought up for just that reason, to prevent models from being Obeyed to perform actions that would require a sacrifice to summon,

where since the summon can't go off,

the sacrifice can't be done.

[Q'iq'el]

Not sure what ruling you are asking for, Mr_Smigs. It is the same as any other ruling on the subject - spell fails, no effects are applied. Since Wounds are listed among spell effects, they are not applied if the Entropic Transformation fails (is resisted).

[Mr_Smigs]

Not sure what ruling you are asking for' date=' Mr_Smigs. It is the same as any other ruling on the subject - spell fails, no effects are applied. Since Wounds are listed among spell effects, they are not applied if the Entropic Transformation fails (is resisted).[/quote']

ok, guess i misread...

i took that last bit as an implication that entropic wasamajigger had a ruling about him taking wounds on a fail...

yes, this whole "all or nothing" does alot...

[Morgan Vening]

That's exactly how it works. If Entropic Trasnformation is resisted, Levi suffers no wounds.

It is the same for all the spells that require you to pay a Soulstone to cast, to Sacrifice a Corpse Counter or Scrap Counter or Blood Counter... if the spell is resisted for any reason, the Counters, Soulstones, Wounds, Control Cards etc. are not spent. (Action points on the other hand are lost, because you spent them beforehand in order to initiate Cast action)

That's what I thought initially too. But it's pretty explicit in section 2D of Magic (Page 53, Rules Manual), that stuff like Wounds suffered, discarding Soulstones, Sacrificing models, or "other requirements", are required to be expended after you have flipped your casting total and before any Resist Tests are made.

Spells that have multiple targets success if at least one of the targets failed its resist' date=' so it is not a problem of having effects partially applied, but rather of having all the effects applied to only part of the targets.[/quote']

That may be what's implied, or intended, but I can't find a single phrasing that indicates this in the Rules Manual. It gets very explicit about when a spell is successfully cast, and the effects of a Resist. And while I'm kinda sure that's how it'll be ruled, that's not what is written.

And this is where we disagree. The phrase "successfully cast" (or "cast successfully") is used seven times in the chapter. And nowhere does it even seriously imply that a successful resist makes the cast unsuccessful. Or that if all resisters succeed, or anything of a similar nature.

Again, I'm not sure if it's intended to be a loophole, or if it's an oversight in the rules, but some of the rulings that have been officially recognized in the past, leads me to not take how I think things should work, as how they actually work.

Morgan Vening

[Mr_Smigs]

Again, I'm not sure if it's intended to be a loophole, or if it's an oversight in the rules, but some of the rulings that have been officially recognized in the past, leads me to not take how I think things should work, as how they actually work.

once you accept the terrible truth of that statement, these forums get to be a lot more understandable...

the Rules as set down in the Manual are meant to be more just Guidelines anyways...

[Q'iq'el]

That's what I thought initially too. But it's pretty explicit in section 2D of Magic (Page 53, Rules Manual), that stuff like Wounds suffered, discarding Soulstones, Sacrificing models, or "other requirements", are required to be expended after you have flipped your casting total and before any Resist Tests are made.

Additional requirements, yes the pages 51 & 53 mention them, but I think you are mistaken as to how that works.

If the spell fails, these still are not applied. The spell simply cannot succeed if you are unable to meet them. (Meeting them is not the same as applying them).

This rule is there so that you cannot force Resist duel (and spending of the cards) on your opponent while knowing you are unable to cast the spell.

[Kadeton]

Additional requirements, yes the pages 51 & 53 mention them, but I think you are mistaken as to how that works.

If the spell fails, these still are not applied. The spell simply cannot succeed if you are unable to meet them. (Meeting them is not the same as applying them).

This rule is there so that you cannot force Resist duel (and spending of the cards) on your opponent while knowing you are unable to cast the spell.

Both page 51 and 53 are totally explicit as to when additional requirements must be met. The casting sequence for a resistable spell goes:

Casting model flips for starting total

Casting model changes starting total or passes

Casting model determines final total

Casting model meets additional requirements

Casting model declares triggers

Casting model determines success

Resisting model flips for starting total

etc...

At the point where the Resist Duel is started, all additional requirements have to have been met (losing Wounds, spending Soulstones, sacrificing models, and so on). The Rules Manual is utterly clear and unambiguous on this point.

Additionally, the success or failure of a spell is determined in the "Casting model determines success" step, which happens before the Resist Duel starts. Resist Duels do not make a spell fail, they simply prevent the spell's effects being applied to the resisting model.

Personally, I like Morgan's suggestion that the first sentence of Menace is an additional requirement. After all, it affects the caster (much like taking Wounds or spending a Soulstone) and is in the standard place for such requirements (the first line). It doesn't have AR:... because that's a Book 3 thing. That makes the most sense to me, makes the spell a viable choice, and is consistent with the rules.

Eagerly awaiting any form of official ruling.

[Wolfgar]

Additionally, the success or failure of a spell is determined in the "Casting model determines success" step, which happens before the Resist Duel starts. Resist Duels do not make a spell fail, they simply prevent the spell's effects being applied to the resisting model.

That is what I'm reading. A model that successfully resists suffers no effects from the spell, but only effects that would affect the resisting model.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Wolfgar

[Adran]

Additional requirements are paid before any resist attempts.

I don't see the walking as an additional requirement required to cast the spell, I instead see it as an effect of the spell. I can't justify it except that none of the examples of additional requirements include moving.

And Fluff wise I can see you not moving towards them because they are not cowled just as easily as seeing it the other way.

If it was ruled to be an addiitonal requirement, the Guards Captain has just gained a huge boost to his mobility.

[Wolfgar]

I don't think the movement counts as a requirement either.

[magicpockets]

The Levi thing is interesting though, I think the wds would be requirements and taken as long as the spell is cast, irrespective of whether it is resisted. "Casting requirements" didn't exist when book 1 was written, but seems to slot nicely into that area.

Re walk being a requirement... :facepalm

[Wolfgar]

Right, so here is what I'm reading:

If the spell is cast successfully, apply the Spell's effects as indicated in its description.

By "cast successfully" I think it would mean the Casting Duel was successful. The Resistance Duel section doesn't mention anything about making the Casting Duel fail if it succeeds.

Under the Resist Duel, I read this:

If the resisting model's final Duel total is greater than the casting total, the resisting model has won the Duel and successfully resisted the Spell, avoiding its effects.

The book seems to be saying that the resisting model avoids the effects of the Spell, not that it causes the casting to fail or causes the effects to not be applied.

So in the case of a successfully cast and successfully resisted Menace, I'd say the caster still takes the movement.

I'm probably wrong somewhere along the line and just not seeing it though.