Ashes and Dust Vs Marcus

[Hapless Peon]

Ok playing against Rathnard tonight and we came up against a strange situation. Leveticus with Ashes and Dust versus Marcus and it is the Beastmasters activation.

Marcus casts Feral on Ashes and Dust and successfully turns it into a Beast, Marcus then casts Alpha on Ashes and Dust taking control of it. Ashes and Dust charges off at a pair of Steampunk Abominations, kills them both then does (0) Implant Decay.

Now, according to Page 13 of the Rules Manual under controlling models Models able to Summon, Place, or otherwise generate additional models cannot do so while controlled by an opposing player. Those effects are ignored while the model is under an opposing player's control.

Does this mean that Desolate Core does not take effect? If so, is this an intended result? Where Marcus can easily dispose of a very high cost minion with no chance of it reforming from Dust Storm and Ashen Core.

[Rathnard]

Damn Mark, that was quick. :smugpuppet1

From what I understand, the A&D's kill action is a seperate effect to its "place the storm/core when killed" talent. Therefore the inability to place new models (as per pg 13) will not fizzle the seperate, Implant decay action.

And before anyone asks, the "can't sacrifice or kill an enemy model you control" rule is not in the rulebook - it's specifically found on obey and other such spells. Thus it doesn't apply to Alpha.

In any case I'm interested to hear what others think of this.

[Mr_Smigs]

I seem to recall a ruling that if part of an ability fizzles, the whole thing fails to go off...

but that might've been a spell-specific ruling ... (IIRC, there was never clarification on it applying to all talents)

I think we had a similar discussion on marcus Alpha'ing a master and having it cull it's own soul...

[96p]

How long does the alpha take effect ? If until AD dies there'd be no Problem, because the models are generated afterwards.

[Mr_Smigs]

How long does the alpha take effect ? If until AD dies there'd be no Problem, because the models are generated afterwards.

the question there would be,

when does the model's activation end in regards to being killed...

[poulpox]

I have the feeling stoping Desolate Core isn't the way to go; I would play that it still happens when (0) Implant Decay is performed.

[sephiroa]

I'm not sure, but i think you activate the model. use the (0) action, A&D dies, summons ashen core and dust storm but cannot, end of activation.

[Buhallin]

Original discussion here

As is obvious if you read the thread, I'm not entirely pleased with the ruling... but there it is.

[Mr_Smigs]

Original discussion here

As is obvious if you read the thread, I'm not entirely pleased with the ruling... but there it is.

what kills me there, is that word "effect" again... getting a different translation than what was given when the definition was updated a couple months ago...

but at least the ruling's consistent... so I see no point in further debate.

[Rathnard]

Original discussion here

Damn, I get the feeling this is going to turn into round two of the above Corphee discussion.

This particular case isn't the same though. The sacrifice and replace effects for the corphee duet are on the same talent - dance apart.

For the A&D however, the kill and replace effects are on different talents - specifically Implant Decay and Desolate Core. Both should resolve and/or fizzle seperately, so the way I see it (and hence described it to LPD last night), is as follows;

1. Marcus Alpha's the A&D - it's now controlled by another player and so the p13 rules for controlling models comes into effect.

2. A&D uses (0) Implant Decay to kill this model.

3. Before it's removed from play, the A&D's "Desolate Core" Talent comes into effect.

4. Desolate core fizzles at the point it requires you to generate new models (as per p13).

5. Implant Decay is a seperate action, and so continues to kill the model despite Desolate Core not working.

It's the same case with the Ratcatcher using Slaughter Rats/Voracious Rats, Kirai with Spirit Anchor, and any other model with a talent that generates new models off killed models.

So I guess the question then comes down to - Will a talent on an Alpha'd model that generates new models, prevent a kill effect that it triggers off of?

[Buhallin]

Ah, hadn't realized they were separate.

I can't see any reason why that wouldn't work. I doubt anyone would argue that you couldn't attack with an Alpha'ed Datsue-ba because it might summon a Gaki. The action is independent and isolated.

At least I'd assume so - we never did get any more response on that previous discussion

[Twisted Metal]

Yea... Another reason not to take A&D.