Does a Buried Model have an Activation?

[Kael Hate]

A question came about with The Dreamer / Lord Chompy Bits Crew. Being that they start with several Models buried, is it ok, when the Dreamers crew has a turn to activate, choose a buried Model, whose activation will immediately end?

[Keltheos]

No, when choosing a model to activate it has to be one in play (on the table).

[Kael Hate]

No, when choosing a model to activate it has to be one in play (on the table).

Can you plz point out where in the rulebook this is stated? Page 31, mentions nothing of having to be on the table. Page 13 states that a Buried Model is still in the Game and effects on it remain. Such is, that if the model is next to activate, should it not even if buried?

[Ratty]

Buried models are not part of the turn sequence. effects won't end at the end of turn if a model is buried, so if you unbury in 3 turns time they would still be on the model.

Buried models can't be activated as activation is part of the turn sequence which they are not part of.

[Keltheos]

Can you plz point out where in the rulebook this is stated? Page 31, mentions nothing of having to be on the table. Page 13 states that a Buried Model is still in the Game and effects on it remain. Such is, that if the model is next to activate, should it not even if buried?

Page 13 also states...

"Unless stated otherwise, only models in play can be affected by game effects and game events."

Activating a model would be a game event.

[magicpockets]

Can you plz point out where in the rulebook this is stated? Page 31, mentions nothing of having to be on the table. Page 13 states that a Buried Model is still in the Game and effects on it remain. Such is, that if the model is next to activate, should it not even if buried?

Page 13 also states...

"Unless stated otherwise, only models in play can be affected by game effects and game events."

Activating a model would be a game event.

Boom! Don't mess with the badge

[Kael Hate]

Page 13 also states...

"Unless stated otherwise, only models in play can be affected by game effects and game events."

Activating a model would be a game event.

There is no term in the Manual for what a Game event is. Is it correct that anything occuring in the game is a Game Event?

Are buried models capable of generating Game events and/or Game Effects even though they cannot be affected by them? Example a buried Lilith with Rush of Magic or The Dreamer being Buried while Several Teddies are in play.

Rush of Magic:

Draw 1 additional card when drawing cards

in the Draw Phase, then discard down to your Crew’s

Maximum Hand Size.

Boom! Don't mess with the badge

I don't know about you but I am not messing about. I'm looking to those who know how the rules are intended so I can clearly communicate that to the others I play with.

Edited December 9, 2011 by Kael Hate
formatting Fail

[Ciaran]

There is no term in the Manual for what a Game event is. Is it correct that anything occuring in the game is a Game Event?

Are buried models capable of generating Game events and/or Game Effects even though they cannot be affected by them? Example a buried Lilith with Rush of Magic or The Dreamer being Buried while Several Teddies are in play.

<B>

Rush of Magic: </B>

Draw 1 additional card when drawing cards

in the Draw Phase, then discard down to your Crew’s

Maximum Hand Size.

I don't know about you but I am not messing about. I'm looking to those who know how the rules are intended so I can clearly communicate that to the others I play with.

A Buried model does not affect the game nor is affected by it. Models that are Buried are essentially skipping forward in time, and are only "present" when they're on the table.

Does that help?

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

So rush of magic example doesn't work per model not in play, during that phase.

You have to realize that game events are pretty implicit and there is a point where things just have to be implied or the rules manual would have to have an extra 100 pages.

[Ciaran]

Actually, one more point about Buried models. The only thing that affects them are things that UnBury models. So game effects that allow the Dreamer to UnBury his Nightmares, etc... are the only game effects that do anything to Buried models.

[Kael Hate]

So rush of magic example doesn't work per model not in play, during that phase.

You have to realize that game events are pretty implicit and there is a point where things just have to be implied or the rules manual would have to have an extra 100 pages.

I play Magic. There is a 20 Page Rule book and a 192 page comprehensive rules document. Its still more intuitive than some of the stuff I see in this game where it implies one thing and coutermands it on the other.

Specifically to this, why does doppelgangers ill omens have a checking statement that it only works while she is in play? If she was buried or otherwise out of play the effect should not work anyhow.

Actually, one more point about Buried models. The only thing that affects them are things that UnBury models. So game effects that allow the Dreamer to UnBury his Nightmares, etc... are the only game effects that do anything to Buried models.

Ok. So now to Dreamers with Teddies. While the dreamer is buried there is no effect to ignore the rarity of teddies or continue to make them nightmares. What happens if I had 4 teddies in play when LCB arrives and the Dreamer leaves? Who chooses which model is removed and what governs how the Rare 1 restriction is now fixed?

[Ciaran]

I play Magic. There is a 20 Page Rule book and a 192 page comprehensive rules document. Its still more intuitive than some of the stuff I see in this game where it implies one thing and coutermands it on the other.

Specifically to this, why does doppelgangers ill omens have a checking statement that it only works while she is in play? If she was buried or otherwise out of play the effect should not work anyhow.

Ok. So now to Dreamers with Teddies. While the dreamer is buried there is no effect to ignore the rarity of teddies or continue to make them nightmares. What happens if I had 4 teddies in play when LCB arrives and the Dreamer leaves? Who chooses which model is removed and what governs how the Rare 1 restriction is now fixed?

MTG is also almost 20 years old, and they've had LOTS of mistakes that irritate the living hell out of me to this point. They've definitely stumbled when it came to rules consistency during that time. Releasing multiple sets and hundreds of cards a year lets them catch and address things pretty quickly. Malifaux is a couple of years old, and has released four books, only three of which are comparable to sets. My best advice is "have patience."

The Dreamer and Teddies: It's a rule that's broken at hiring, so stays in play throughout the game, even if the Dreamer is killed. It's not play effect, it's a hiring effect.

Now, if someone were to take Weaver Widow and make Teddies those new ones would not be Nightmares, and would fall under the Rare number because they're not hired under the special rule.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

I play Magic. There is a 20 Page Rule book and a 192 page comprehensive rules document. Its still more intuitive than some of the stuff I see in this game where it implies one thing and coutermands it on the other.

Specifically to this, why does doppelgangers ill omens have a checking statement that it only works while she is in play? If she was buried or otherwise out of play the effect should not work anyhow.

Bury mechanics were not really being utilized in book 1 while they were in book 2. So some language is redundant.

You have to read the rules in a vacuum where you don't try to apply other systems and in fact this game is quite intuitive. There is need improvement in wording and more standardization but you have to realize in the very beginning of the book it mentions rules are going to be broken. This is important to understand this game is designed to have loop holes and breaks but staying balanced and having very little cheeze.

This game has had one minor revision but it was after 2 books. Really the bury mechanics is one of the easiest parts of this game. It is very straight forward and intuitive.

[Keltheos]

Is activating a model an event in the game (a game event?)? That should pretty much cover the definition. It's not something that needs overthinking.

Either way, a buried model cannot be selected as the model you're going to activate next. That's how the rule is played.

[Fading Memory]

I think this thread was partly created to understand why buried models keep their buffs and debuffs. The way I explain how this works is unofficially there is an "out play status" and a "removed from game" status. Because they are "out of play" they still retain whatever effects they have on them because they are still a part of the game. If a model is "removed from the game" it is no longer part of the game what so ever.

[SnG]

I would like to see the question of the dreamers ability to remove rarity from Teddies be address while buried.

As I see it with out the dreamer in play the Teddies have Rarity 1, just as a Nef lists can't grow into more then two mature in play at any one time, how is the dreamers ability affecting Teddies when he is not in play?

[magicpockets]

I would like to see the question of the dreamers ability to remove rarity from Teddies be address while buried.

As I see it with out the dreamer in play the Teddies have Rarity 1, just as a Nef lists can't grow into more then two mature in play at any one time, how is the dreamers ability affecting Teddies when he is not in play?

I think this is a case of common sense RAI. Yes more definition would be useful in general, but I think this point is fairly obvious. Also, specifically on that point, doesn't it say something about "crews containing this model" or something?

[Ciaran]

I would like to see the question of the dreamers ability to remove rarity from Teddies be address while buried.

As I see it with out the dreamer in play the Teddies have Rarity 1, just as a Nef lists can't grow into more then two mature in play at any one time, how is the dreamers ability affecting Teddies when he is not in play?

It's a Hiring issue. When the Teddy was hired it had Rare 1 removed, and Nightmare added to it. At that point it doesn't matter if The Dreamer is Buried, or even dead, those changes still work on the Teddies.

[magicpockets]

^^ thought so