Biting Chill Weirdness

[Calmdown]

Figured I'd post this here for clarification and get it out of the Arcanist forum.

Here is how Biting Chill works, as far as I can see, within the letter of the rules:

Assuming a 4 Wd model.

Successfully cast Biting Chill

Trigger Overpower

Deal 2 Dg (meeting Overpower's "must deal Dg" condition)

Target takes 2 Wd (is now at 2 Wd)

Successfully cast Biting Chill

Trigger Overpower

Deal 2 Dg (meeting Overpower's "must deal Dg" condition)

Target takes 1 Wd (is now at 1 Wd)

Successfully cast Biting Chill

Trigger Overpower

Deal 2 Dg (meeting Overpower's "must deal Dg" condition)

Target takes 0 Wd (is now at 1 Wd)

Even once an enemy model is at 1 Wd, you still cast at it. Even if the model takes no Wd, you always deal 2 Dg regardless meaning you always trigger Overpower and hence keep casting the spell as long as you successfully flip to cast it.

I only post this because I know this is not how people play it; most people don't even cast it when the enemy is at 1 Wd (which is wrong in any case), but the fact that it always deals damage is overlooked, I think.

Can we get a Rules Marshal clarification on this please, and if this is incorrect, an explanation as to why/how it should work?

Cheers

[Adran]

I don't see how anyone can view this as a cuddle.

Its what the rules have stated for the past 2 years

And I stand by

the spell only deals damage at the end of the process which includes wound prevention. So once the model has been reduced to 1 wd, the next casting of it will fail to deal damage (which is different to dealing DG) as the spell itself prevents the wounds. So no more overpower.

[Calmdown]

And I stand by

the spell only deals damage at the end of the process which includes wound prevention. So once the model has been reduced to 1 wd, the next casting of it will fail to deal damage (which is different to dealing DG) as the spell itself prevents the wounds. So no more overpower.

Maybe so. But "this spell may not reduce" isn't exactly clear, mechanically.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Because Rasputina really needed a cuddle?

I understand the reasoning and am not arguing against the ruling, just noting that this is actually a cuddle for Rasputina, as you're now forced to cycle through good cards while a Biting Chill target is at 1 wd, unless you can cheat down to fail the cast or flip something low.

It's not a huge cuddle, but it is one.

I also wonder how many other models are affected by an auto-trigger "Must" ruling?

It's not a "cuddle". It's a clarification. How exactly were you playing it?

[Buhallin]

hmm... time to look... if you can squirrle up a + to all casting flips, or +3 CA somewhere.... it could be a viable way to just, pause, the game.....

Raspy still needs a 9+ for Biting Chill to go off at all. There's quite a good chance of failing that even with a to back it up - which I'm having a hard time figuring out where you'd get anyway.

Could you theoretically stall the entire game, flipping two cards at a time and getting a 9 out of each duel so it goes off every time? Uhm, no... You couldn't. There are 14 values, 5 of which would get the spell off. Even if they spaced out perfectly - one 9+ to one 8- in each duel - you'd run out of successful cards before you ran out of deck, and there's always the Black Joker in there.

[Mr_Smigs]

Raspy still needs a 9+ for Biting Chill to go off at all. There's quite a good chance of failing that even with a to back it up - which I'm having a hard time figuring out where you'd get anyway.

Could you theoretically stall the entire game, flipping two cards at a time and getting a 9 out of each duel so it goes off every time? Uhm, no... You couldn't. There are 14 values, 5 of which would get the spell off. Even if they spaced out perfectly - one 9+ to one 8- in each duel - you'd run out of successful cards before you ran out of deck, and there's always the Black Joker in there.

yeah, i'm not seeing a good way to get that probability acceptable...

(I thought there was a + to casting... but it's to damage, so that doesn't work...)

and i don't recall any way to boost CA of a model...

(tho, i get the feeling this would be a good reason Arcanist won't get a CA boosting model...)

[Adran]

You can get the + to cast from a Librarian, and with the ability to cheat from your hand and use soulstone in a perfect deck set up, you need 3 soulstone to get through your entire deck the first time, and eventually you could make it an infinte loop with enough luck, although I think you run out of soulstone before then.

[Mr_Smigs]

are you taking into account the 1 card burn for your defense flip for targeting your own model?

[Adran]

No. I'd not taken that into account.

And there was me working on milling my deck via decembers pawn to only contain 9+ cards.

[Cats Laughing]

It's not a "cuddle". It's a clarification. How exactly were you playing it?

I was playing it that you could choose to not use the automatic trigger. I thought automatically triggered meant that the trigger conditions were assumed to be automatically met, but that you still had the option to declare and use another trigger (that had conditions that were met) or choose to declare and use no triggers.

When Ramos gets a +tome to CA from the toolkit(?) he automatically meets the requirement for the Surge trigger, but doesn't need to declare or use that trigger. (to explain my thinking)

That was the change for me, and I'm fine with realizing that I had been playing it wrong. Oh well.

As for the cuddle. It is not a major cuddle. In fact it's kind of minor, but it's still a bit of a cuddle.

1) If you can choose to not use Overpower, then you can choose to use Surge instead. If you have to use Overpower then you can't use Surge (biggest part of "cuddle")

2) If you're forced to use Overpower, then you will be forced to flip cards with the potential outcomes of (in order of likeliness)

-A) flip low and cast fails, stop casting

- flip high cast succeeds, opponent flips low, spell not resisted, cast again

-C) flip high cast succeeds, opponent flips high but lower than your total, spell not resisted, cast again

-D) flip high cast succeeds, opponent flips higher than your total, spell resisted, stop casting

-E) flip black joker, stop casting, draw two cards

E and D are highly unlikely, though both have beneficial outcomes (draw two cards or opponent wastes high card).

C is fairly unlikely and typically not beneficial, as you're wasting a high card for no gain and you have to flip again with a chance of wasting more high cards to no gain, but at least your opponent wasted a somewhat high card.

B is what really sucks. You waste a high card, have a good chance of wasting more high cards, and your opponent has merely gotten rid of a low card. This is somewhat unlikely to occur, but sucks when is does and really sucks if chained together.

A should happen most frequently and is what makes this only a minor cuddle. You cycle through a low card to no gain. On the otherhand, that low card could still have been enough to cast one of Rasputina's other spells (like the Armor or Terrain spells) and possibly even trigger surge off of those other spells.

If you want to break the chain at B, C, or D (prior to seeing your opponent's flip), you can cheat in a low card, but this has several possible detrimental effects, or reasons why you wouldn't want to or can't do this.

1) less cards in your hand for cheating other flips (a low card can sometimes be enough to win a duel or at least lower your opponent's margin and add/increase negative damage flips, a low card can also be enough to cast a low CC spell and also possibly get a trigger)

2) less cards in your hand for Surge trigger discards and other abilities requiring discards (Flurry for instance)

3) less cards in your hand for bluffing (if you do this)

4) you might not have any low cards to cheat with

5) you might not have any cards to cheat with period

6) certain opponents get benefits when you cheat in/play cards.

Essentially this clarification/ruling comes with no benefits for a Rasputina player and does have minor downsides, and therefore is a cuddle.

I do admit, this cuddle is minor and probably so minor it doesn't deserve all of the above text...

[Akujie]

cuddle seems more along changing the wording on an ability to make it less powerful, this seems more like a clarification...but thats just semantics I s'pose

Its power level doesn't change, you can't and never could double trigger, so thats not really a cuddle, so having to choose the single trigger does hurt, but it is so easy to cheat a low card to fail the spell if your worried about running all your great cards out of your deck, and you can use it to cycle bad cards out or a great option for cheating that black joker out of your hand to end the chain and get some card replenishment! Yeah it hurts some, ut it helps some too!

Edited November 2, 2011 by Akujie
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