vics best minion to tackle hamelin the plagued.

[Pox]

so, never played against Haemlin the plagued before and was looking at what would be a good minion for the vics to take along to ideally help with this master.

the three contenders in my minds eye all clocking in at 9SS are

Hamelin the ratcatcher.

Jack daw or

Von Schill.

let me elaborate and please tell me if i'm completly wrong on any point.

Hamelin the ratcatcher -

Pros: Bully seems the key ability, with Hamelin the plagued clocking a lot of height 1 models - and the ability to ignore all of those is pretty good going.

Irresistible Dance - is a great spell irregardless of opponent, very useful i assume on rat-catchers and other significant models.

Obey - always nice to cast on my own people to gain more hitting power.

Pipers Lure - ability to move rats/units away from ratcatchers/hamelin and then kill them where they do not generate more rats.

So all round a good defence and cannot be targetted by most of hamelins crew with some interesting disruption spells, and the ability to obey my crew into more death dealing.

decent WP and plenty of wounds.

Jack Daw:

Can try to scare rats away i guess at Terrifying 13.

real pain to get rid of I am assuming - especially since rats can't actually hurt him as they are slow.

- severed ties could help slow hamelins spell-casting down a little? with him not using soul stones/cheating fate.

again decent WP.

Von Schill

- very mobile with his good move value, nimble and flight.

- packs a big punch with his clockwork seeker, and can gain control cards by killing Ht1 models with his hunting knife.

- Slow to die makes him hard to get rid off

- Ruthless and decent WP makes he can hunt the stolen I guess? picking them off to make it easier to get rid of hamelin.

- more reliable then the other options as his main strengths are movement/gun rather then spells.

So what do people think? or is their someone even better for the job that i have completely overlooked?

[BlueStar86]

Von Schill worked really well for me when I fought The Plagued last time, even if he got really chewed up for it, because I was playing too aggressive as usual. The important part is that Vonschill brings with him Friekorps specialists, yes, it's a short-ranged weapon, but I think it's very effective. Basically: I used Von Schill as bait to get them to move into flammenwerfer range, and then I lit them all on fire.

Sadly, I don't know how the others would work out for the Viks, so I can't really say anything else.

[Pox]

surely a hamelin player would just get the specialist to detonate his tanks? and since I wouldn't be using any other freekorps that would be BAD news indeed.

[Sliver Chocobo]

The guy with the flamethrower, possibly her avatar

[Serigala]

Posted this in the parallel thread under Neverborn...got very confused when I couldn't find it 10 minutes later. :confusedpuppet2

For an assassination run on the Rat Catchers, Ronin are half the price of Von Schill, and with Run through and Next Target can gain push moves through a rat screen to tackle Rat Catchers hiding behind them. Their Daisho also ignores the armour bestowed by the rats and gives + flip to damage. Melee expert should allow them at least 2 strikes on their ultimate target.

They are also Hard to Kill.

Viks shouldn't leave home without them.

[Pox]

Posted this in the parallel thread under Neverborn...got very confused when I couldn't find it 10 minutes later. :confusedpuppet2

For an assassination run on the Rat Catchers, Ronin are half the price of Von Schill, and with Run through and Next Target can gain push moves through a rat screen to tackle Rat Catchers hiding behind them. Their Daisho also ignores the armour bestowed by the rats and gives + flip to damage. Melee expert should allow them at least 2 strikes on their ultimate target.

They are also Hard to Kill.

Viks shouldn't leave home without them.

This i can totally agree with, got to love me some ronin, was kinda wondering what would be best to compliment them - or should i just take more ronin and rely on numbers - giving hamelin a slightly harder time at making everything insignificant?

Liking the idea of von-schill mainly because rats being ht 1 means they can be shot over, but forgot about the armour 2 on rat catchers that does make von-schil much harder to get some good damage in.

Hamelin the rat catcher on the other hand could draw the rat-catcher out and leave him an open target i guess...

Also mr convict gunslinger and surpressing fire could be a good option as he would have to discard control cards to make sure his ratcatcher was not paralysed.

[naiatoc]

I think this is a classic case of 'target priority'.

Having not yet played Hamelin, I am more worried about what models I should focus on, as opposed to who I should include in my crew. Should I be targeting ratcatchers with my Ronin, or focusing on killing rats? Should I throw the Vickies up against Hamelin himself, or is that a big no-no?

I would go into the game with one of my standard lists, but I need to know how to fight him.

[BlueStar86]

Ignore the rats, they respawn after killed anyway. Unless you have slaughter of course. The best solution is to kill everything in a single action, it's very difficult, if not impossible.

I would suggest target priority to be:

1.The Stolen within 3" of Hamelin.

2.Hamelin

3.Ratcatchers

4.Rats

Killing The Stolen next to Hamelin keeps makes sure he won't come back after being killed. Killing the Ratcatchers will keep the rats from spawning after you kill them, it's not easy by any means, but if you have the right tools it's entirely possible for some crews. You will need to make sure you can kill the ratcatchers that the rats spawn. Same thing with Hamelin and The Stolen, you have to kill them all at basically the same time.

[Thechosenone]

Ignore the rats, they respawn after killed anyway. Unless you have slaughter of course. The best solution is to kill everything in a single action, it's very difficult, if not impossible.

I would suggest target priority to be:

1.The Stolen within 3" of Hamelin.

2.Hamelin

3.Ratcatchers

4.Rats

Killing The Stolen next to Hamelin keeps makes sure he won't come back after being killed. Killing the Ratcatchers will keep the rats from spawning after you kill them, it's not easy by any means, but if you have the right tools it's entirely possible for some crews. You will need to make sure you can kill the ratcatchers that the rats spawn. Same thing with Hamelin and The Stolen, you have to kill them all at basically the same time.

Doesnt errata state that it doesn't matter where the stolen are? Still worth killing but i'm pretty sure Hamelin respawns as long as their are stolen on the table.

[BlueStar86]

Doesnt errata state that it doesn't matter where the stolen are? Still worth killing but i'm pretty sure Hamelin respawns as long as their are stolen on the table.

I suppose it does, though I don't think that's how it's supposed to work, giving him access to any of them anywhere on the board is a little unfair. The important part is to get him and the ratcatchers away from the rats, so if you follow the target priority to the letter, it won't even be a problem. Then get the ratcachers and rats off the board, all that remains is Hamelin hiding wherever he put that The Stolen, which probably won't be all that close to anything.

[Buck Dog]

I think Hamelin The Rat Catcher is a great idea. It seems that he is overlooked by merc players far to often in favour of something more obvious like Von Schill or a pair of Ronin. I have been playing with him a lot recently, and he has single handedly won me games.

I think obey and bully would help no end again The Plague.

[Serigala]

I've only played my own Hamelin crew a few times, but my insights might help.

First, proximity is important.

Rats only respawn if they are within 6" of either Catchers or Hamelin.

2 Rats have to be within 2" of Rat Catchers to give the Catchers armour. The Stolen have to move into a position within 6" of an opponents model (or have the model come to them) to use their (All) Abandon action (which turns the model insignificant) on their next activation.

It's easy to get the distances wrong and overextend one or more models out of the range of influence of these buffs. Watch for this and take advantage. You might even be able to bait your opponent into doing this. Rats are much faster than Catchers, and it actually requires quite a degree of self-control not to leave them behind.

Taking out Rat Catchers will require the Hamelin player, to either bring their rats closer to Hamelin to protect them, or sacrifice 3 rats to create another one.

Taking out Stolen removes the easiest way to turn your models insignificant.

Secondly, many of the Hamelin crew's abilities require sacrificing their own models. If you can deny them additional rats by not allowing him to kill your own models (hang back in the early turns) then he will run out of momentum.

I wouldn't bother trying to kill Hamelin, until all the Stolen are off the table, but although he has 12 wounds, a Vik Whirlwind should be able to take him down.

I haven't learnt all the tricks but IMHO a standard Hamelin crew is nasty but certainly not unbeatable.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Killing him is huge in cutting his ca down which makes it easier to resist his spells. Moving the ratcatchers through lure or obey is important so you can kill the rats. Less rats on board less control and options are available to him.

[Necromorph]

Just a word of caution when trying to tackle hamelin....don't focus a strategy around killing rat catchers. Many hamelin players don't run the rat swarm in many lists, myself included. I'll run them when my specific strat fits their use, but generally you're more likely to see things like Canines taking the place of a rat swarm in many lists....as they can be converted to rats as they die anyways, and allow for.more flexibility and action control.

Edit: Probably should have read Mr.B's post first haha, but yeah +1.

[Pox]

I think Hamelin The Rat Catcher is a great idea. It seems that he is overlooked by merc players far to often in favour of something more obvious like Von Schill or a pair of Ronin. I have been playing with him a lot recently, and he has single handedly won me games.

I think obey and bully would help no end again The Plague.

yes he has almost single handedly won me games in the past, at one stage would not leave home without him.

obey, bully and some of the other spells are very good but Plague? not sure on that one due to the very very high cost to cast, and the fact that every rat swarm I kill will no doubt return back to the table if it was in range of a ratcatcher/haemlin and just give them more activations.

think in many things it really depends on the specific scenario and picking schemes that can be achieved by insignificant models helps a ton, such as bodyguard on the vics and grudge.

[CannonFodder]

When playing against Hamelin, I find my best strategy is to separate the rat catcher from the rats, then take out rats. Try and not to take on Hamelin directly and contain him.

• Hameling the Ratcatcher can help seperate him, and can do 1 damage to all rats.
  
• Taelor & Joahn to knock them aside
  

[Necromorph]

:firedevil Devil's Advocate :firedevil

You're all assuming the Hamelin player, upon seeing Hamelin the Ratcatcher, would be stupid enough to leave Hamelin more than 6" from his Rat Swarm. Again, also, you're assuming there will even be Rats and Ratcatchers.

The best advice I can really give is to find ways to tie Hamelin up. There is no auto-win solution like "kill rat catchers" or "kill stolen." It's really not about killing, it's about tying him up and trying to force Hamelin to deal with models that threaten his own strats/schemes, so that he can't focus on denying you yours.

[CannonFodder]

I think its safe to say that until the Avatar comes out, there will be Rats and Rat catchers. Without rat catchers Hamelin needs to clump up, making objective easier.

[Necromorph]

I think its safe to say that until the Avatar comes out, there will be Rats and Rat catchers. Without rat catchers Hamelin needs to clump up, making objective easier.

I've never had an issue when I didn't take them...unless the strat is right for 'em, there are just too many flaws in the rat swarm.

It's easily manipulated, vulnerable to things like terrifying, and doesn't give you as much activation control, etc. Sure, you will end up with them in the end, but very rarely is there a need to start with them.

Yes, there are people that use them all the time because it's fluffy or they don't understand their other options, I'm just pointing out that basing an entire counter strategy on killing a single 5ss model will get you burnt if you're not prepared for the alternatives, that's all.

[magicpockets]

I think its safe to say that until the Avatar comes out, there will be Rats and Rat catchers.

Not at all, sometimes I only end up with rats from enemy kills. For a lot of games I don't take rats/rat catchers and when I do it's only 1 RC and 3 rats to start some momentum. Terror tots, canine remains, night terrors and guild hounds are much better for a lot of objectives.

[BlueStar86]

Not at all, sometimes I only end up with rats from enemy kills. For a lot of games I don't take rats/rat catchers and when I do it's only 1 RC and 3 rats to start some momentum. Terror tots, canine remains, night terrors and guild hounds are much better for a lot of objectives.

Maybe, but those are significantly easier to deal with, the kill priority I gave before was to get rid of The Plagued, if those don't exist, then it makes things a lot easier.

The game moves back to a more traditional, for Malifaux, sense, it's no longer "you have to kill ALL of X so you can kill ALL of Y, otherwise they will keep respawning." which makes the game more interesting, it takes the predictability out of it.