easternheretic Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 As the title suggests, I'm finding it incredibly difficult killing spirits with my Lilith crew. The usual games around where I'm from are 30SS. My list usual consists of the following 1 Lilitu 1 Lelu 1 Young Nephelim 3 Terror Tots I'm aware that if the strategy or schemes do not require it, I won't make it a priority, but there are time where you have no choice in the matter, or thinning the opposition crew helps in achieving the VP. Any advice on models to take, tactics to use would be much appreciated. The toughest spirit I've run into to date is Snowstorm. The number of Wds, Dfs and its activation are just a night mare to handle. Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunning Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 One thing you can do is try and keep high crows in your hand then use Drink Blood with Lelu. As it's a spell the damage doesn't get halved. Yes it sounds weird that you can drink the blood of a spirit but there you go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 Myself and Cunningstunt have played a fair few games with Nephilim vs Spirits The absolute best weapons in your arsenal are: Black Blood Poison Lelu's Drink blood Lelu's Thoughts Twisted Flay (does so much damage that even halved it hurts!) Lilith (same as Flay) Obviously Lelu fulfils most of those criteria nicely. If you're struggling with spirits, 2 Lelu will see you through nicely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 The trick is to aim for odd numbers, especially attacks that have 3 as their weak Dg... They give you the best bang for your buck. I know I have issues with models like Von Schill as 3 halves down to 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easternheretic Posted October 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 Never thought of that. And it does sound weird! Have you done it before reliably? Looking at Lelu's card and assuming best case scenario to hit with a ton of crows in hand and all weak flips for damage as a baseline: Zero action in melee range cast Drink Blood, Melee expert and 2 melee strikes with Vampiric Bite with Thirst trigger. That's 7 wounds to a model. Seriously doubt if the above can pulled off, but I must remember this and give it a try. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 Never thought of that. And it does sound weird! Have you done it before reliably? Looking at Lelu's card and assuming best case scenario to hit with a ton of crows in hand and all weak flips for damage as a baseline: Zero action in melee range cast Drink Blood, Melee expert and 2 melee strikes with Vampiric Bite with Thirst trigger. That's 7 wounds to a model. Seriously doubt if the above can pulled off, but I must remember this and give it a try. Thanks! Never make melee strike with Vampiric Bite, as a rule. Use the claws. They're paired, they have poison, and can trigger Flay. They do a minimum of 3 damage to spirits essentially, 4 with moderate or a weak flay, and 5 with a moderate flay. And that's before you drink blood, black blood or twist thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easternheretic Posted October 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 2 Lelu's can be squeezed in by dropping the young nephilim. With the poison on claws but the trigger for thirst on bite makes it a bit of a toss up on when to use which strike. Any thoughts? I haven't tried other mercenaries with my Lilith crew other then the Desperate Merc for a grow list experiment. Is a 10SS Von Shill worth it? After an initial look at what he brings, he seems to have more bang for buck then even the mature nephilim. Your thoughts on this? Thanks for the response fellows. This is helping alot. Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 With the poison on claws but the trigger for thirst on bite makes it a bit of a toss up on when to use which strike. Any thoughts? I haven't tried other mercenaries with my Lilith crew other then the Desperate Merc for a grow list experiment. Is a 10SS Von Shill worth it? After an initial look at what he brings, he seems to have more bang for buck then even the mature nephilim. Your thoughts on this? If I were only doing 1 attack I would normally pick the poison attack. If the model was already poisoned and I had the hand to support a Thirst trigger and casting the bite I would go with that. It also helps heal up lelu. there are other situations I'd pick the bite and trigger over the claws, but generally the extra 2 wds when it actrivates next are goign to be your best bet. Von Schill doesn't bring a magic weapon to the party, so won't help with that issue, but he can put out a lot of shooting damage. Typically mobile melee damage is better than mobile shooting damage as being in melee does not effect the melee but ruins the shooting. Granted Von Schill canb disengage at will, but he still suffers from trying to shoot someone engaged in melee. And anything that Von Schill is in range to shoot, the Mature can charge. Snowstorm is even harder to kill when you shoot him because of his natural cover and bulletproof. As a direct replacement, I would use the mature for killing things and Von Schill for interacting with things. Depends on what your mission calls for really. Other opinions may differ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunning Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 I would usually go with claws. Paired is great, plus poison, but if you have some high crows in your hand it can't hurt to use the bite as long as you keep one back for the 0 action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easternheretic Posted October 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 So its claws for most occasions and the bite only if I have a spare melee strike, a spare high crow in hand and the model in question is already poisoned. Looks like I'm heading to my LGS for another Lelu. It's a bit earlier then I had planned. I do have two Lilitu's and was planning to get a second Lelu much later. I had planned on getting more models for my new Pandora crew first, but I'm bumping Lelu right to the top of the list to help with all the spirit problems I'm having. Once again, thanks for all the advice! Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 (edited) Looks like I'm heading to my LGS for another Lelu. It's a bit earlier then I had planned. I do have two Lilitu's and was planning to get a second Lelu much later. Well, on the upside, it will help you build future Neverborn lists. You can follow this handy formula: Does my list contain a Lelu? YES: Good. NO: Add a Lelu. Does my list contain a Lilitu? YES: Good. No: Add a Lilitu Do I have 7 points spare? YES: Add a Lelu NO: Free up 7 points and add a Lelu Am I playing Pandora? YES: Swap your second Lelu for a Lilitu NO: Good to go! That's how competitive tournament players build Neverborn lists. Now you can, too! Edited October 27, 2011 by Calmdown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micahwc Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 Calmdown, I find that I agree with you completly on this one. I have to discover ways to convince myself not to take Lelu and Lilitu with me. I play master's from 3 factions, and I think they are by far the best 14 point investment you can make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micahwc Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 As far as mercs are concerned, Taelor, Johan, and Misaki all do full damage to spirits and fit in nicely with Lilith. I like Taelor's model so she would be my choice, but Misaki might be the most advantageous to you with her range and huge damage potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easternheretic Posted October 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 Now that's an interesting idea to look into. I've never considered mercenaries for my builds beyond the much maligned desperate variety when I was experimenting with a grow list. The model range is nice as well. On top of that, as a table top war gamer, I have figmentia, and would be collecting a few more masters including Victoria in the future, so getting some of her minions earlier won't be a waste. Decisions decisions. Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easternheretic Posted October 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 Calmdown, I've started to notice ever since I mananged to get my hands on the Lilitu models (Waited forever for stock from both my LGS and Maelstrom.) that I never play a Lilith game with out at least 1 Lilitu and 1 Lelu. I've even tried 2 Lilitu's with 1 Lelu. It seems to be an almost no brainer at the moment. Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyCarl Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 Misaki would be my recommendation as well. Her stat line is awesome and she has an amazing melee range. This is improved further by being at closer range and giving her melee attacks blasts. Spirits don't like magical blasts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 Calmdown, I've started to notice ever since I mananged to get my hands on the Lilitu models (Waited forever for stock from both my LGS and Maelstrom.) that I never play a Lilith game with out at least 1 Lilitu and 1 Lelu. I've even tried 2 Lilitu's with 1 Lelu. It seems to be an almost no brainer at the moment. Cheers! Every time I make a list for any faction, I say to myself... do these models stack up to Lelu and Lilitu? The answer is universally no In regards to mercs mentioned above - they're all a tad expensive, but your best bet (if you already have 2 Lelu and want even more magic) is Misaki. She's the scariest single model that I ever face when playing Kirai. Outside of Viks, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sliver Chocobo Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 Well, on the upside, it will help you build future Neverborn lists. You can follow this handy formula: Does my list contain a Lelu? YES: Good. NO: Add a Lelu. Does my list contain a Lilitu? YES: Good. No: Add a Lilitu Do I have 7 points spare? YES: Add a Lelu NO: Free up 7 points and add a Lelu Am I playing Pandora? YES: Swap your second Lelu for a Lilitu NO: Good to go! That's how competitive tournament players build Neverborn lists. Now you can, too! That not tournament playable at all, your just going to mawed to by Austringers. On the note of spirits best choice Taelor or Misaki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 That not tournament playable at all, your just going to mawed to by Austringers. On the note of spirits best choice Taelor or Misaki Are you serious? like... seriously? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sliver Chocobo Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 Are you serious? like... seriously? Ok, you wont be able use them every time, but against it useless Cb 7:+fate (from the drill sergeant) one might have another Lucius have give orders three times, obey from Perdita another from her totem meaning a maximum of nine attacks at 12" ignoring LOS. Other time it's just better to take Tuco and tots or the grow list Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easternheretic Posted October 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 I've gone off an ordered a Misaki and an extra Lelu through my LGS to give them a try. Once again, I failed to do much damage to a Snowstorm during a match up. His Df 6 to Lelu Cb 5 is a major stumbling block. Slightly off topic, Silver Chocobo, how do you handle the dual Austringer, and all the shenanigans that comes with them. I find that they are a good area denial unit, as i hate getting pecked to death from a distance, and most Guild players around here pack one if not 2 for most of the games. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sliver Chocobo Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 (edited) Mature Nephilim + fast it can deal some damage to them as well as potent blood on the mature, so if you only manage to deal four damage to each of Austringers, black blood can finish them off Walk 6" + diving attack 10" = total 16" and two attacks Edited October 31, 2011 by Sliver Chocobo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 Once again, I failed to do much damage to a Snowstorm during a match up. His Df 6 to Lelu Cb 5 is a major stumbling block. Really? You have Paired claws, you have the advantage in a huge way. And you hit harder than Snowstorm does by 1 AP and a (0) attack. You should kill him in 2-3 hits without problem with regularity, particularly once you factor in Thoughts Twisted. Sounds like maybe you're not quite getting to grips with whatever is going on around these two fighting or maybe just having bad luck with cards? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easternheretic Posted November 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 Silver Chocobo: The mature nephelim has fast? I must reread my cards. I've stopped using him for a while now as its 10SS cost was on the high side. But if it has fast, that changes everything. Calmdown: Even with paired claws, I did little damage. I did have a crap control hand and was flipping cards on the low side though. I'll give Lelu whacking Snowstorm a try again, the next time I run into him and see how it goes then. Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sliver Chocobo Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 The mature doesn't have fast, but you can give it fast with Black Blood Shaman or the Student, if 14 or 16 is too much, you can go with the grow list for a mature, BBS 6, despert 2 and tot 3 for 11 points Cheesy i know. but you have fight cheese with cheese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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