Stiched Together and Paralysed

[Adran]

Hello

Interesting combination came up in a game yesterday.

I managed to paralyse a Stiched Together before it activated. I then preceded to kill it triggering It does not die.

My Opponent then forfited his activation of it, removing the Paralysed.

He then proceded to kill it again, triggering does not die and granting it re-activate.

The wording of Does not die states that if this model has already activated it gains Re-activate.

Does Forfiting an activation to remove Paralysed count as activating for the purpose of does not die?

Ratty and Kelthos' Sig here for the rules

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20642&highlight=paralysed

Edited October 26, 2011 by Adran
Added link

[Fading Memory]

Hello

Interesting combination came up in a game yesterday.

I managed to paralyse a Stiched Together before it activated. I then preceded to kill it triggering It does not die.

My Opponent then forfited his activation of it, removing the Paralysed.

He then proceded to kill it again, triggering does not die and granting it re-activate.

The wording of Does not die states that if this model has already activated it gains Re-activate.

Does Forfiting an activation to remove Paralysed count as activating for the purpose of does not die?

Ratty and Kelthos' Sig here for the rules

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20642&highlight=paralysed

That doesn't work.

Stiched Together is paralyzed.

Stiched Together is killed.

Does Not Die is activated. Remains in play with one wound and cancels out Paralyzed with its Reactivate.

Stiched Together gets 1 activation that turn and is sacrificed at the end of the turn.

A model cannot be given Reactivate twice. When you killed the Stiched Together, Does Not Die triggers and gives the model Reactivate. Your opponent cannot kill it again to give it reactivate a second time.

[marshimartian]

That doesn't work.

Stiched Together is paralyzed.

Stiched Together is killed.

Does Not Die is activated. Remains in play with one wound and cancels out Paralyzed with its Reactivate.

Stiched Together gets 1 activation that turn and is sacrificed at the end of the turn.

A model cannot be given Reactivate twice. When you killed the Stiched Together, Does Not Die triggers and gives the model Reactivate. Your opponent cannot kill it again to give it reactivate a second time.

Incorrect, see here:

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=25899&highlight=reactivate+paralyzed

Reactivate is given multiple times

Reactivate cancels paralyzed

Reactivate allows a second activation

Reactivate cannot be used to activate a third time

Multiple instances of Reactivate both cancel paralyzed and allow a Second, but only a Second activation.

[marshimartian]

Response to OP:

Skipping activation does not count for Alps, Poison, or Regeneration. Don't think it would count for DnD as it specifically says if the model already activated. Link above explains if paralyzed after first activation.

[Adran]

That doesn't work.

Stiched Together is paralyzed.

Stiched Together is killed.

Does Not Die is activated. Remains in play with one wound and cancels out Paralyzed with its Reactivate.

Stiched Together gets 1 activation that turn and is sacrificed at the end of the turn.

A model cannot be given Reactivate twice. When you killed the Stiched Together, Does Not Die triggers and gives the model Reactivate. Your opponent cannot kill it again to give it reactivate a second time.

Thats also not the question.

Does not die only gives re-activate if the Stiched has already activated this turn. So your list there is faulty.

And I've followed the link, and I can't even see a ruling in the page that is related. Wierd Sketch corrects something on does not die. But there is nothing else related actually rueld upon.

Following back to the earlier thread (linked in the linked thread)It is ruled that you can't be effected by a second re-activate after you have re-activated a second time, but that also doesn't say that if you lost a re-activate to a paralyse that you can't get a re-activate.

[Lord Shaper]

Hello

Interesting combination came up in a game yesterday.

I managed to paralyse a Stiched Together before it activated. I then preceded to kill it triggering It does not die.

My Opponent then forfited his activation of it, removing the Paralysed.

He then proceded to kill it again, triggering does not die and granting it re-activate.

The wording of Does not die states that if this model has already activated it gains Re-activate.

Does Forfiting an activation to remove Paralysed count as activating for the purpose of does not die?

Ratty and Kelthos' Sig here for the rules

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20642&highlight=paralysed

If you paralyze it before it activates it does not gain reactivate but has one would left.

It forfits it's activation to remove paralyze BUT forfiting an activation does not mean it has activated. The paralyze means it does not get an activation this turn at all.

So it can't be killed again to reactivate as it still has not activated.

I hope that helps.

[Stern]

If you paralyze it before it activates it does not gain reactivate but has one would left.

It forfits it's activation to remove paralyze BUT forfiting an activation does not mean it has activated. The paralyze means it does not get an activation this turn at all.

So it can't be killed again to reactivate as it still has not activated.

I hope that helps.

That's exactly how I see it too, what the cards say at least

[Calmdown]

Yep the guys have it.

Stitched can gain Reactivate multiple times per turn, but if you Paralyze it before its activation, it doesnt matter how many times it dies, it will never gain Reactivate from Does Not Die because it will never have fulfilled the "if it has already activated" criteria.

[Carse]

Also remember if stitched gets does not die then it can't be killed and therefore can't activate does not die again.

[Fading Memory]

I thought I might have been wrong when I posted. It was 3:30 am and I was tired. :tired:

Also remember if stitched gets does not die then it can't be killed and therefore can't activate does not die again.

No it gets to activate Does Not Die every single time it dies. Sketch ruled that its not a lingering effect, and triggers every time it dies.

[Carse]

But if I remember correctly does not die says the model may not be killed, so while does not die can activate as many times as the model dies it shouldn't be able to die more than once because it can't be killed more than once.

Or I am remembering wrong.

[Cunning]

But if I remember correctly does not die says the model may not be killed, so while does not die can activate as many times as the model dies it shouldn't be able to die more than once because it can't be killed more than once.

Or I am remembering wrong.

When Stitched should have died it does not die and remains on 1 wd. If it has already activated it gains reactivate.

So if something should remove that remaining wound then Does Not Die gets applied again.

[Lord Shaper]

In the Original Question hitting it again would not give it reactivate again as it had not activated originally and due to the paralyse it lost it's activation.

So hitting it again would be a waste of an action as the Reactivate would trigger on it originally being activated.

[Necromorph]

Wow....so when its in play with one wd left and you kill it again, it still triggers dnd....thus remaining in play? When I read the updated wording for the ability I was under the impression that if you killed it, it would remain in play with one wd and recieve reactivate, but doing another 1wd would kill it (like an improved hard to kill). I figured that change would fix all the complaining about stitched....maybe they need to change the wording again .

Edited October 26, 2011 by Necromorph

[Fading Memory]

Most People have problems with Stiched Together being used in Slaughter. Straight forward kill strategies are not the best way to play Malifaux (or the point system needs to be re designed, Poison kills don't count either). Malifaux is best played as an Objective based game, go here and do this. If Slaughter was not a part of the game, I think people would have less issues with them. Also a lot of players get hung up on I have to kill in order to win. Therefore, they have the mindset that if I can't kill the Stiched, I can't win the game. And that's not so.

[Necromorph]

Yeah, I've never really had too much of an issue with them...unlike another 5ss model out there . Ive seen the annoyance in slaughter though, but its far from insurmountable.

[Akujie]

So what about if it has activated, then you kill it and then paralyze it. It would have one reactivate and one paralyze which would cancel out, but if it were to get hit a second time the two reactivates would cancel paralyze and let it reactivate in that situation?

[Fading Memory]

So what about if it has activated, then you kill it and then paralyze it. It would have one reactivate and one paralyze which would cancel out, but if it were to get hit a second time the two reactivates would cancel paralyze and let it reactivate in that situation?

Correct. A model may receive Reactivate as many times as it wants in a turn, but it can only activate a second time from reactivate. It may not activate a third, forth or more times in a turn.

So the Stiched receives Paralyzed. It is killed and Received Reactivate from DnD. Paralyze and Reactivate nullify each other. It is killed a second time, DnD triggers, and it receives Reactivate. The Stiched can then activate a second time.

[Lord Shaper]

Correct. A model may receive Reactivate as many times as it wants in a turn, but it can only activate a second time from reactivate. It may not activate a third, forth or more times in a turn.

So the Stiched receives Paralyzed. It is killed and Received Reactivate from DnD. Paralyze and Reactivate nullify each other. It is killed a second time, DnD triggers, and it receives Reactivate. The Stiched can then activate a second time.

I'm not sure your right there...

This is How I see it working:

Stitched activated and did Oogy Boogy things

Stitched Killed and gets paralyse DnD activates and gets Reactivate

Stitched has to forfit reactivate to remove paralyse

Hit Stitched again DnD activates Reactivate can only be given once which it already had been to be forfit to paralyse.

[Mike3838]

I can see where the confusion is coming from.

You can receive Reactivate an unlimited number if times in a turn. You could be given Paralysed, then Reactivate, so they cancel, then Paralysed, receive Reactivate again, they cancel again, potentially over and over and over in a turn with no problems.

The key is that the a model can only benefit from a bonus activation from Reactivate once in a turn.

Mike

[Adran]

I'm glad to see the consesus is that Forfitting an activation does not count as an activation. Its what i thought, but wanted to see others opinions.

I haven't yet seen a ruling on recieveing multiple reactivates to clear multiple paralysed.

I'm thinkin its probably the case that this can happen. After all Does Not Die will happen EVERY time the stiched is reduced below 1 wound.

And if a model effected by Paralysed gains reactivate the two cancel each other out and so the model isn't currently effected by Reactivate

so it can still be applied.

On the plus side, I've come up with a good target for the elegance spell.

[Lord Shaper]

I'm glad to see the consesus is that Forfitting an activation does not count as an activation. Its what i thought, but wanted to see others opinions.

I haven't yet seen a ruling on recieveing multiple reactivates to clear multiple paralysed.

I'm thinkin its probably the case that this can happen. After all Does Not Die will happen EVERY time the stiched is reduced below 1 wound.

And if a model effected by Paralysed gains reactivate the two cancel each other out and so the model isn't currently effected by Reactivate

so it can still be applied.

On the plus side, I've come up with a good target for the elegance spell.

But isn't that the same as saying that you'll forfit your activation to get rid of it but since you haven't actually used an activation you can take it?

You gain reactivate which gives you another activation. Paralyse means you forfit an activation so you have to choose to forfit the reactivated activation as otherwise you would be paralysed until the following turn...

So there is no cancelling out to mean nothing happens. Your opponent has an action causing the death of the stitched after it had activated.

You then choose to forfit the stitched's reactivation activations to forfil the get rid of paralyse.

Your opponent activates someone else.

if they cancelled out then you would not have chosen to forfit the reactivation's activation

Since you can only be given reactivation once and you chose to forfit it you can not have it back.

Does that make sense?

[Adran]

Page 34 of the rules manual says that the two cancel each other out. A model is not affected by by both Reactivate and Paralysed at the same time

It seems to follow the same rules for fast and slow in that you can not be affected by them both at the same time, but if one of them is applied again, the model is affected by it.

[Mr_Smigs]

I haven't yet seen a ruling on recieveing multiple reactivates to clear multiple paralysed.

it came up in the Slow Stacking discussions last month (and the month before)

Yes, because the ruling that "Does Not Die" isn't a lingering effect..

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=25899&page=2&highlight=lingering

the model can get reactivate multiple times...

Page 34 of the rules manual says that the two cancel each other out. A model is not affected by by both Reactivate and Paralysed at the same time

It seems to follow the same rules for fast and slow in that you can not be affected by them both at the same time, but if one of them is applied again, the model is affected by it.

Page 34 is badly written.

they don't really "cancel each other out"

it's more "they resolve at the same time, resulting in a net change of 0 unless there are more of one than the other"

again...

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24905&highlight=slow+stacking

and all the threads that links to...

end result: by current ruling

YES

if you paralyze a stitched together, they can just kill it a couple times to purge the paralysis and restore it to normal actions, and still get the reactivate.

[Adran]

I knew there was something but hadn't re-found that thread.

In Summery

you kill and paralyse a Stitched Together before it activates, it will not be able to activate, and so it will not be able to get re-activate.

You kill and paralyse a Stitched Together that has already activated, the reactivate will counter the paralysed. Killing it again can add futher reactivates until there is at least 1 more than paralysed and it will be able to reactivate.

[Mr_Smigs]

[whoops] misread a bit on the cards

Edited October 27, 2011 by Mr_Smigs