Cut Away and Armor at resolution

[Mr_Smigs]

Ok,

Cut away only applies IF the model had armor to start with,

does this apply to even situational armor?

can you Cut Away Bullet Proof?

can you Cut Away Magic Resistance?

and any other powers that only give Armor vs specific attacks...

how about that Armor -1.

If you can Cut Away Bulletproof, what does the Armor -1 do when the model is stabbed?

if you Cut Away Friekcorpse Armor, do they lose their resistance to auras, pulses, blasts, and whatnot?

[bropps85]

Armor is different than armor. Armor is a specific game term and as such things that look like armor, act like armor or rhyme with armor are completely different. While bulletproof, object, evasive etc have similar rules the Cut Away only refers to Armor and so everything else is unaffected. That being said, any Armor would be lowered, including I believe temporary or even Joss's because Cut Away doesn't ignore Armor it merely lowers it.

[MrNybbles]

Large Steampunk Arachnid

(1) Cut Away

Target model gains Armor -1 if it has an Armor of +1 or more. This spell is cumulative.

Ok,

Cut away only applies IF the model had armor to start with,

does this apply to even situational armor?

can you Cut Away Bullet Proof?

can you Cut Away Magic Resistance?

and any other powers that only give Armor vs specific attacks...

In my opinion, no.

I think this was intended to only be applied to Armor +#, and not situational/conditional armor.

Those abilities all say "This model gains Armor +# vs. ..." so the armor isn't there to be cut away when the spell is cast, except for Magic Resistant (because Cut Away is a spell). However, I think Armor vs. Spells and Spell effects is not meant to be affected by Cut Away and requires a clarification by a Rules Marshal because, in my opinion, your argument does play by the Rules as Written.

how about that Armor -1.

If you can Cut Away Bulletproof, what does the Armor -1 do when the model is stabbed?

if you Cut Away Friekcorpse Armor, do they lose their resistance to auras, pulses, blasts, and whatnot?

Because Cut Away states you can only cut away Armor when there is Armor +1 or more, you can never have a negative amount of armor (assuming Armor +# vs. Spells and Spell effects isn't meant to be affected by Cut Away).

[Q'iq'el]

Go and check the rules for Evasive, Bulletproof and such. They give models Armor +#. It is specificly restricted to one type of damage or attack, but it still is being called Armor +# in the Rules Manual.

IMHO if you remove Armor you remove any type of Armor.

[Ratty]

Evasive/Bulletproof etc only apply the Armor at resolution.. When you cast the spell they are not giving the model any addition Armor. The spell says it only affects models with Armor +1 which the model doesn't have at the time the spell is cast.

[Q'iq'el]

Evasive/Bulletproof etc only apply the Armor at resolution.. When you cast the spell they are not giving the model any addition Armor. The spell says it only affects models with Armor +1 which the model doesn't have at the time the spell is cast.

With all due respect, where does it say that?

Because when I read the wording:

"This model gains Armor +# vs. ranged attacks"

Then it reads to me as the model gaining Armor +# effect on the card, with the exemption applying it only when hit by a ranged attack.

There's no functional difference between gaining Armor +# from some other spell/aura and gaining it via Bulletproof, is there?

[tenabrae]

It does seem logical that if you have conditional armour that it only exists while that condition is being fulfilled e.g. During a ranged attack; whereas a model that has the armor trait has it all the time.

[Q'iq'el]

It does seem logical that if you have conditional armour that it only exists while that condition is being fulfilled e.g. During a ranged attack; whereas a model that has the armor trait has it all the time.

Generally speaking, abilities are permanent and effects persist for their duration. Some of them activate when conditions are met, true, but int this case there is no conditional sentence.

If the rule said the model gets the Armor +# when hit by Ranged Attacks, I'd probably agree with you.

But you get the Armor vs. defined type, which sounds like special property of (special rule for) this type of Armor and not a conditional sentence.

[Fading Memory]

I think some of this has to do with Lazarus with Patchwork Armor "can't be modified or ignored," but at the same time he has Evasive. They have to be two separate Armors otherwise they would't work and why give a model a Talent it can never possibly use?

Armor seems to be both a Talent, and somewhat of a game term. When someone says Armor +2 two, we automatically think "reduce damage by 2.

When someone says Bulletproof 2, we automatically think Armor 2 versus ranged attacks, reduce damage by 2.

The definition calls it Armor + # vs ranged attacks, but remember the Original Talent is called Bulletproof.

Also Bulletproof is an adjective. It's not a noun like Armor. I think that plays in some of the confusion. It may be seen as "describing" the Armor. What if it was called "Deflector Shields," would that change the way people look at the other types of Armor like skills?

[Q'iq'el]

I don't think it's as complex as that.

We know that in Malifaux many "special rules" can be an ability (talent) or an effect, depending on how the model got them. The former are permanent, the later may have a limited duration, but they still appear on the card for the time of that duration. They can also be permanently applied (by a talent) or the timing may depend on external factors (auras can do that, as long as the object is in range for example).

I'd say there's nothing partigularily confusing here. There's a talent, which makes the model "gain" Armor +# and so the effect is permanently on the model. You can hex Bulletproof off and then Armor +# given by Bulletproof will disappear as well.

The Armor gained that way is restricted to one type of attack, but that's ok - anything can be modified by special rules.

This is a straight simple interpretation in my opinion. Everything else seems to require an introduction of mechanics and rules I cannot find in the RM.

This discussion is also connected at the hip with the old argument about the rules for Armor stacking. If you are hit by a ranged attack, does Bulletproof stack with basic Armor or not? I was of the opinion it did back then and I still think it should, as long as the rules for Bulletproof or Evasive remain unchanged.

Obviously it can be ruled the other way too - it'd be nice for the wording to get fixed, in such case.

Edited October 23, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Hatchethead]

This discussion is also connected at the hip with the old argument about the rules for Armor stacking. If you are hit by a ranged attack' date= does Bulletproof stack with basic Armor or not? I was of the opinion it did back then and I still think it should...

You mean it doesn't? For what possible reason?

[Issalbotproto]

Have you guys ever thought you are overthinking game terms?? Bullet proof acts as Armor against ranged attacks but is not armor only Armor is Armor

everything acts as armor it's like how Dug In isn't armor, it just acts as armor...

This is what happens when you try to over think a concept...

[ame]

[/ame]

[Mr_Smigs]

Have you guys ever thought you are overthinking game terms?? Bullet proof acts as Armor against ranged attacks but is not armor only Armor is Armor

everything acts as armor it's like how Dug In isn't armor, it just acts as armor...

This is what happens when you try to over think a concept...

by this logic, Cut Away isn't Armor it's Cut Away,

which means a model hit by Cut Away still has Armor and can be stacked with Cut Away multiple times.... taking us back tot he other conversation about negative armor.

relevant post:

In which case the Armor +3 is granted by an effect generated by the Power Cycle. So the model would have Armor +1 and the Power Cycle effect on it, which would give it Armor +4 in damage resolution.

A model should never have more than one Armor +# ability on the card, all other Armor modifiers will come from one effect or another.

Edited October 23, 2011 by Mr_Smigs

[Ratty]

What you have done again, is take something I said. Not understood it and therefore made a ludicrous conclusion. In the thread you quoted, we were discussing talents for copying via assimilate. I said that there will only ever be one Armor +# talent on the card everything else would be effects that were applied and added to the Armor. Yes a model in the right power cycle would have Armor +4 so could have cut away cast on it multiple times.

Edited October 23, 2011 by Ratty

[Mr_Smigs]

What you have done again, is take something I said. Not understood it and therefore made a ludicrous conclusion. In the thread you quoted, we were discussing talents for copying via assimilate. I said that there will only ever be one Armor +# talent on the card everything else would be effects that were applied and added to the Armor. Yes a model in the right power cycle would have Armor +4 so could have cut away cast on it multiple times.

and what you've done is ignored the general question and addressed a specific question that wasn't even asked.

Your Statement (As I understand it):

The Armor From Power Cycle is not part of the model's Armor. So it is considered Separate from the model's actual Armor ability.

A Model can have multiple Effects that grant it Armor, but each Effect is separate until attack resolution.

Thus a doppleganger could Copy Armor, or Power Cycle. But would have to mimic both to get the full effect the Rider has...

The General Question

As a model can have multiple effects that apply Armor, that are not considered Armor because they are Effects,

when a model is affected by the Cut Away effect, it would not actually lose Armor, but have two effects that total out at resolution.

As a result, what happens if that total is Negative?

[Mr_Smigs]

[whoops double post]

[Q'iq'el]

You mean it doesn't? For what possible reason?

I should've worded my post more precisely. I was speaking about the controversial case of blast damage from a ranged attack - should it receive Armor both from Bulletproof and Evasive, or only Evasive.

But let's not bring it here - it has its own thread and now I also see it is not exactly correlated (it's more about how damage and attack types stack, not the armor types).