Ramos vs Viktoria [Late night; long post; lots of questions]

[i_was_like_you]

Ramos vs Viktoria on a long, narrow coffee table.

Turns out the table is 24" by 48". We played longways, like a football field. It certainly made Ramos' Strategy of "Destroy the Evidence" and Scheme of "Power Ritual" unattainable. Poor choices, but I thought I could get Kaeris to the backfield. Ramos did manage to kill Sword Vikie and Hans with Electrical Fire but was unable to kill any models with his Clockwork Fist, so he did not achieve "Do I Have to Do Everything Myself" either.

The Vikie's had the Strategy "Escape and Survive". As Killjoy was the only remaining model on her crew at the end, that didn't happen. Neither did the announced Scheme "Breakthrough" as none of her models was even past the 50 yard line, much less in my end zone (aka Deployment zone). Her unannounced Scheme of "First Blood" netted her 1VP, for the win.

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Afterthoughts: I'm running a new Ramos list and need to get a better feel for all of the working pieces. The same went for my opponent running Vikies for the second or third time ever.

My list:

Arcanists Crew - 35 - Scrap

Ramos -- 8 Pool (maybe dropping down to 6 for avatar)

Mobile Toolkit [3ss]

Kaeris [8ss]

Essence of Power [2ss]

Gunsmith [6ss]

Rusty Alyce [10ss]

I'm thinking, even though I did burn through all 8ss, that 6 of those might have been better spent on a second Gunsmith. [i didn't take avatar because it was a learning game and I didn't want to discourage my opponent.]

I did take a huge risk having Alyce use Burn Out on Ramos turn 1 to give him Reactivate. It did get me a Steampunk Arachnid Swarm on turn 2, but instead of continuing with the construct factory, I started moving Ramos on a slow march forward (after some healing by the Toolkit).

Speaking of the Swarm, it charged Gun Vikie on its first appearance, missed, missed again on its first swing with melee master, but hit for 3 on its third swing, triggering Overwhelm leaving her paralyzed. If it had connected with one more hit in there somewhere, I'd have had it swing on Sword Vikie too. Alyce failed to cast Burnout on it, so it didn't get the chance to swing again.

Instead, now that Hans had taken it down to 3Wd, Kaeris and Essence of Power closed in on her, the EoP going first. It cast Overheat, killing the Swarm and giving both Vickies a burning token. Kaeris Immolated Gun Vikie, killing her and leaving a pillar of flame in her place. It missed Sword Vikie by a quarter inch (if that can even affect her / be placed touching her).

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Some questions that arose during play that I didn't stop to look up:

Hans - Sniper: This model ignores cover, obscuring terrain, and intervening models when targeting ranged attacks.

Does him ignoring the intervening models also mean that he does not have to flip for firing into melee? We played it as he didn't just to keep the game moving.

Steampunk Arachnid - (1) Swarm Together ...Any wounds or effects on the individual Steampunk Arachnids are applied to the Steampunk Arachnid Swarm.

Does Slow count as an effect? One of the Arachnids (let's call it A) had Slow from being freshly summoned, walked up into base contact with the other two, used Disruption Field for (0), and ended its activation. Next model to activate was another Arachnid (. It used Disruption Field followed by Swarm Together. The 2Wds on A (from it getting shot as team Vikie tried to thwart this plan) carried over to the Swarm, but does Slow? I ruled it as yes, again to speed things up. So instead of 3AP, I only gave it 2AP, plus the 0 from the Arachnid C which I used for Self Repair, plus the +2 Melee Master attacks.

Kaeris - (1) Immolate: ...If target model is killed, replace it with one 50mm marker.The marker is obscuring, Ht5, and hazardous (Dg 3).

The marker only lasts until the End Close Phase like her Flame Wall, right? That's how we played it.

Can it be placed touching another model (as it doesn't specify it like Flame Wall)?

If it can, does it then deal its 3Dg?

[From a game vs Colette] Can a Coryphee use Pass Through to just go through it or a Flame Wall unscathed? As it's a marker, not a model, my reasoning is no, it can't.

Burning Marker / Flame Wall - Obscuring (Pg. 15 of the Rules Manual)

- Models can draw LoS up to 3" across an intervening base with the obscuring trait, but not entirely through the base.

- Models on an obscuring base can draw LoS up to 3" to other models on that base.

- If all the lines drawn by a model must be drawn across more than 3" of a base with the obscuring trait, or must be drawn entirely through the base and that base's Ht is equal to or greater than both the model's and the target's Ht, then the model's LoS to the target is blocked.

- If LoS is drawn 3" or less across a base with the obscuring trait, or if the base's Ht is less than both the model's and target's Ht, then the model has partial LoS to the target. If a model draws LoS to a target that is on a base with the obscuring trait, but the line drawn does not cross the obscuring base, the target still receives soft cover.

Do Flame Walls / Markers count as terrain? If not, which I think I remember is the case, does that mean Hans' Sniper can't ignore it?

A worker at the LGS I originally started buying Malifaux from had told me, in regards to Stitched Together's Fog that it was only obscuring, so it was no problem because he'd just use Focus to negate the negative flip (presumably from soft cover). This was prior to the release of the Rules Manual, so I don't know if firing into / through more than 3" of obscuring's rules changed at some point.

What it shows me in the example on pg. 16 is that obscuring can be fired into if it's less than 3" but not fired through. So Flame Wall / Marker can't be fired through, right?

What about Fog?

Alyce - Impressionable: At the start of the game, nominate 1 Master with Scavenger in this model's crew. This model can use the Master's Ca or its own when casting spells. This model gains all of the Master's abilities affecting its Ca.

With Ramos as the Master, does that include:

Counterspell?

Perfect Machine?

Casting Expert?

Surge?

I used none of the above during this game.

Pg. 12 of the Rules Manual, 8 - Talents

Models in Malifaux can possess one or more Talents. Talents are divided into four categories: Abilities, Actions, Triggers, and Weapons.

Abilities: A model's Abilities are always considered active during the game unless otherwise indicated and are applied whenever called for int the rules. This includes Abilities that grant the model additional general or specific action points (AP), such as (+1) Fast, or (+2) Melee Master. These abilities are listed in the model's Actions entry for ease of reference. See Actions, p. 32.

Actions: Any specific Actions a model can perform in addition to the general Actions outlined on p. 33. This also includes any AP-granting Abilities, such as (+1) Melee Expert.

Triggers: Triggers can be activated when the model meets the conditions for their use (see Triggers p. 26)...

That seems to me that Alyce should, at the least, have access to Casting Expert.

Alyce - (1) Burnout: (CC:15 :tomes / Rst: - / Rg: 10) Target friendly Construct receives Reactivate. Reduce target to 1 Wd at the start of the Closing Phase.

Can Burnout target a model with only 1 Wd? If so, does it inflict any additional Wounds?

I didn't think it could target a model with only 1 Wd; however, I didn't think it could deal any additional Wounds. I thought it'd be kinda broken to just keep giving Ramos Reactivate and never letting him heal. It might be a bit more fair if he has to heal at least 1 Wd before it happens again.

Killjoy - Blood Price: Starting with the third turn, if this model is in play and does not have an enemy model in its melee range at the start of an Activation Phase, it immediately Charges the closest model.

It's turn three, we haven't yet flipped for initiative, there's no enemy model in Killjoy's melee range, it immediately charges the closest model before we even flip for initiative, correct?

Does this charge still burn his 2AP?

Does it count as activating him?

If Onslaught's trigger is met, can it be declared as well?

If the model is killed, can Eat Your Fill be used?

Does he still have (+1) Melee Expert remaining?

Does it happen before Out of Control?

Does Out of Control have anything to do with this charge, or will that have to wait until after he's just used his 2AP charge, resolves anything else, ends this special activation, and it finally comes around for his player to actually activate him?

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Mostly I'm posting this to come back to it later to look them up when I have the time. Should you answer any of these questions, I would appreciate it. Citations in the rules / updates / errata would also be appreciated for any questions answered. Thanks in advance.

[His Fattness]

Okay, I run Ramos and Kaeris so I think I can answer most of these questions. If I'm wrong someone please correct me.

The marker only lasts until the End Close Phase like her Flame Wall, right?

For the pyre marker, since it does not say otherwise, it will only last to end closing phase. Just like the wall. So you played it right.

Can it be placed touching another model (as it doesn't specify it like Flame Wall)?

Yes it can. It's a great way to damage clumped up units. And yes it does it's 3 damage.

Do Flame Walls / Markers count as terrain? If not, which I think I remember is the case, does that mean Hans' Sniper can't ignore it?

They do not count as Terrain. They are effects. Hans will ignore up to three inches like any standard unit so unless he is firing long ways through the wall it won't effect him. Effects like The Fog or Steamcloud are 3 inches or more so he does not have LoS to his target.

Alyce - Impressionable:

As I read it the only one of those ablities she would get would be Surge. The others have to real effect on the CA of Ramos. Should would be able to use his 8 as her cast.

Can Burnout target a model with only 1 Wd? If so, does it inflict any additional Wounds?

Yes, and no.

It's turn three, we haven't yet flipped for initiative, there's no enemy model in Killjoy's melee range, it immediately charges the closest model before we even flip for initiative, correct?

Correct.

Does this charge still burn his 2AP? Does it count as activating him? If Onslaught's trigger is met, can it be declared as well?

No. No. And yes.

If the model is killed, can Eat Your Fill be used?

No. It's a (0) action and can only be taken during his normal activation. So it can't be used on this strike or the one granted by Slow to Die.

Does he still have (+1) Melee Expert remaining?

No. It's not an activation.

Does it happen before Out of Control?

Yes. Out of Control triggers on Killjoy's activation.

Does Out of Control have anything to do with this charge, or will that have to wait until after he's just used his 2AP charge, resolves anything else, ends this special activation, and it finally comes around for his player to actually activate him?

Not a factor, see above answers.

I'm very sure most of this is correct, but again if anyone sees an error please correct.

[BlueStar86]

The table I play in is 48X72, we just mark out a 36X36 area to play in, because if we don't then it mucks up deployment, and that in turn mucks up everything else.

[Tograth]

with regards Hans and shooting - Hans has a few different abilities, and these make him far superior to a normal shooter with Hunter.

He has Sniper, which means he ignores cover, obscuring terrain (so he can see right through terrain, and 6" or deeper woods do absolutely nada against him), and intervening models (so you cant hide a Ht1 model behind a Ht 2 model and expect it to be safe from him. You will still need to randomise in combat however).

In addition to this, he has the Goggles ability. This means that he ignores any spell or talent which affects LoS. This means Creepy Fog etc do not affect him, as do any Pyre effects etc. This also means he does not need to focus, as the fog simply does not effect him.

With regards obscuring terrain - if terrain is 3" deep and obscuring, you can see through it. It must be *more* than 3" to prevent being able to see through it.

with regards impressionable:

this only allows you to copy the masters Ca. The line about abilities means that you can copy Leveticus' Dual Focused. Unfortunately, surge and the others are talents, not abilities, so you cannot copy them :(.

Im not sure about casting expert, however.

With regards Pass through -

you cannot use this to ignore the effect of the marker. Pass Through only allows you to move across the bases of other models, so long as you do not end your movement on their bases.

finally, with regards the steampunk arachnid:

their swarm together ability is rather confusing at times. To go over your questions however:

Slow is an effect, but it goes away as soon as you activate. It would not transfer if you activate the summoned spider before you swarm together.

The process of swarming together is quite convoluted, but this is how it goes:

Spider activates. Receives 2AP and 1 (0) AP. Takes the (1) swarm together action, while in base contact with 2 other spiders.

You summon a spider swarm into base contact with any of the 3 spiders. You apply any effects that are on the spiders to the swarm, as well as any wounds.

Next, you remove the spiders from the game.

Finally, you continue the activation using the swarm. It *only* has access to the remaining AP from the spider that used the swarm together action, as the other spiders have no AP as they only receive their AP when they activate.

The Scatter action works differently, however. Swarm together is a Replace action, but Scatter is a Summon action. This means that when you Scatter, all three spiders that form receive slow, but they also can all activate.

One neat trick:

Spider swarm activates. Uses 2 Melee Master attacks, uses Disruption Field. Uses 1 general AP as it likes, and then takes the Scatter action.

Each spider then receives the Disruption Field effect as well as Slow. They may all then activate, each receiving 1 AP and 1 (0) AP to use as they like.

[i_was_like_you]

Thank you all. I'm going to be putting these into play in just a moment with the (mostly) same list against the Freikorps. I'm debating whether I should go with that second Gunsmith or just start with a few Arachnids to making swarming an easier endeavor.

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As I was facing the Freikorps (with Taelor and Convict Gunslinger along for support), I opted for the second Gunsmith. Strategies are Distract for me and Claim Jump for my opponent. I've taken announced Bodyguard twice (Ramos and Kaeris). My opponent has announced Kill Protege (Alyce).

We're only two turns in and are pausing the game until tomorrow. Turn one was uneventful. A Burnt Out Ramos made two Arachnids and an Electrical Creation. Kaeris drew me a card and laid down a Flame Wall.

Turn two started ramping up. Ramos got Burnt again, made two more Arachnids, which both scurried up on a line with the first two, now 10" from Ramos, and not far from the opposition. Arachnid A double walks up to Taelor and latches on.

Kaeris and EoP move in and use Overheat on Arachnid A, giving Taelor, a Freikorpsman, Specialist, and Convict Gunslinger one Burning Token. Both Gunsmiths, with armor piercing, move up, popping off shots at the Trapper. Only one was wounded and could use The Hard Way, but doing so flipped the Red Joker for Experimental. Trapper is down to its final wound.

Arachnid B Swarms together with C & D, heals its 2Dg walks to melee range with Taelor, and, between its two swings, takes her down to one Wd. As she has a Burning Token, she'll either die or receive slow (once we resolve all of our Closing Phase before moving onto turn three tomorrow).

Edited October 23, 2011 by i_was_like_you
Encounter thus far

[Adran]

Ramos vs Viktoria on a long, narrow coffee table.

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Some questions that arose during play that I didn't stop to look up:

Hans - Sniper: This model ignores cover, obscuring terrain, and intervening models when targeting ranged attacks.

Does him ignoring the intervening models also mean that he does not have to flip for firing into melee? We played it as he didn't just to keep the game moving.

He still has to flip for his target, its just other models can not block line of sight

Steampunk Arachnid - (1) Swarm Together ...Any wounds or effects on the individual Steampunk Arachnids are applied to the Steampunk Arachnid Swarm.

Does Slow count as an effect? One of the Arachnids (let's call it A) had Slow from being freshly summoned, walked up into base contact with the other two, used Disruption Field for (0), and ended its activation. Next model to activate was another Arachnid (. It used Disruption Field followed by Swarm Together. The 2Wds on A (from it getting shot as team Vikie tried to thwart this plan) carried over to the Swarm, but does Slow? I ruled it as yes, again to speed things up. So instead of 3AP, I only gave it 2AP, plus the 0 from the Arachnid C which I used for Self Repair, plus the +2 Melee Master attacks.

If the Arachnid had not activated, the model would have been slow. Because you had activated that arachnid you had already used the effects of Slow.

When you summon the swarm you have the Action points from the Arachnid that is currently activating, and none of the other arachnids have any AP yet,(page 32 you recieve the action points at the start of your activation) so you should have

only had 1 AP. (page 38)

The swarm is a replace effect, so it will look and see it has taken a 0 action this turn. If you hadn't done the second disruption field then it could make its healing flip

Kaeris - (1) Immolate: ...If target model is killed, replace it with one 50mm marker.The marker is obscuring, Ht5, and hazardous (Dg 3).

The marker only lasts until the End Close Phase like her Flame Wall, right? That's how we played it.

Can it be placed touching another model (as it doesn't specify it like Flame Wall)?

If it can, does it then deal its 3Dg?

Lasts until end close phase. I think it can be placed touching another model, but it wouldn't cause them daamge. Page 59 says models entering hazadous terrain flip for damage, but its only when they enter it

[From a game vs Colette] Can a Coryphee use Pass Through to just go through it or a Flame Wall unscathed? As it's a marker, not a model, my reasoning is no, it can't.

Reasoning is correct

Alyce - Impressionable: At the start of the game, nominate 1 Master with Scavenger in this model's crew. This model can use the Master's Ca or its own when casting spells. This model gains all of the Master's abilities affecting its Ca.

With Ramos as the Master, does that include:

Counterspell?

Perfect Machine?

Casting Expert?

Surge?

I used none of the above during this game.

Will only include talents that specifically reference their Ca, so no triggers or casting expert as neither of those affect its Ca.

Alyce - (1) Burnout: (CC:15 :tomes / Rst: - / Rg: 10) Target friendly Construct receives Reactivate. Reduce target to 1 Wd at the start of the Closing Phase.

Can Burnout target a model with only 1 Wd? If so, does it inflict any additional Wounds?

I didn't think it could target a model with only 1 Wd; however, I didn't think it could deal any additional Wounds. I thought it'd be kinda broken to just keep giving Ramos Reactivate and never letting him heal. It might be a bit more fair if he has to heal at least 1 Wd before it happens again.

It doiesn't have any restrictions against it, so it will work. The risk is having your master on 1 wound ready for an easy death

Killjoy - Blood Price: Starting with the third turn, if this model is in play and does not have an enemy model in its melee range at the start of an Activation Phase, it immediately Charges the closest model.

It's turn three, we haven't yet flipped for initiative, there's no enemy model in Killjoy's melee range, it immediately charges the closest model before we even flip for initiative, correct?

Does this charge still burn his 2AP?

Does it count as activating him?

If Onslaught's trigger is met, can it be declared as well?

If the model is killed, can Eat Your Fill be used?

Does he still have (+1) Melee Expert remaining?

Does it happen before Out of Control?

Does Out of Control have anything to do with this charge, or will that have to wait until after he's just used his 2AP charge, resolves anything else, ends this special activation, and it finally comes around for his player to actually activate him?

Him making the charge is similar to him being obeyed. It does not effect his activation in any way. he may make use of Triggers during it, so Onslaught could mean there are several attacks. He can not use his melee expert or any 0 actions as its just the charge hhe gets.

Out of control has no interaction with this card

[i_was_like_you]

Thank you.

The only issue that's not sitting right with me at the moment is the Burning Marker.

It's not terrain, so the terrain rule may not have any bearing on it. If it were terrain, I'd still think having the terrain enter your space would have the same effects as you entering its. It's the whole having a house dropped on you kinda thing. Or in this case, a burning body.

I wanna say that it works more like a blast marker that just happens to stay until the turn wraps up and the flames die down.

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20881

Just found this in the (supposedly) Resolved Rules Questions section, but it doesn't look like there ever was a final ruling, just more speculation. They also kept treating it as terrain, when it isn't. They ended it with let's wait and see when Kaeris is released, but she's been released with no change to the wording, otherwise I wouldn't have had the question. But even treating it as terrain, they do make it entering the model's space the same as the model entering its space.

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My next Ramos match with the same opponent was against the Freikorps, Taelor, and Convict Gunslinger.

Both of these matches against living models make me want Ramos to have a spell that makes a model into a Construct, like Marcus can make them into a Beast. That, or I just need to bring a graverobber along with me to allow for, clean up and use corpse counters, since their models aren't giving me any extra scrap counters.

I took a second Gunsmith, leaving me only 2ss. The Gunsmith seemed to be worth it, but I feel I'd rather have a few more soulstones. Gonna ponder over which 3 - 5 point model might serve me best, or if need be, which combination of models can make up for taking out both Gunsmiths. Having them around for Kaeris to heal up the wounds she's inflicted on herself to draw cards AND having their Hard Way :+fate to attacks able activate is quite the advantage.

Edited October 24, 2011 by i_was_like_you

[i_was_like_you]

After some discussion on this and another thread, I think my next list will look something more like this.

Arcanists Crew - 35 - Scrap

Ramos -- 4 Pool

+ Ramos, Avatar of Invention [2ss]

Brass Arachnid [2ss]

Kaeris [8ss]

Essence of Power [2ss]

Large Steampunk Arachnid [5ss]

Large Steampunk Arachnid [5ss]

Lazarus [9ss]

Although I am a fan of proxying, I may leave Alyce in place of Lazarus until he becomes available, since I'll already be proxying Avatar Ramos by setting down the 50mm in base contact with him, then setting him on top of the new base. In my opinion, he didn't get much of an avatar sculpt, but he certainly makes up for that in avatar abilities.

It's definitely going to be very starting hand intensive, relying on 2 :tomes of 7+ and 1 :tomes of 11+ (possibly red joker) to summon Electrical Creation twice and to get the Brass Arachnid to be able to Stoke Ramos for the reactivation in order to summon EC that second time (after it bursts in between his activations), but it could lead to a turn 2 manifest. [in a brawl with Ramos and Hoffman, I could give Ramos the Brass and Hoff the Toolkit, letting Ramos abuse both. And no, that's not counting all of the other ways Hoffman could help out.]

The Large Steampunk Arachnids are there for some early scrap counters that Ramos will need for later on. They'll also allow Lazarus to assimilate Ramos' use soulstone ability for the rest of the game. And, Ramos can certainly resummon those models later on.