Does anybody still use the classic lists?

[the_madhatter1]

What i mean is does anybody not use lists (especially mcmourning, and no nicodem) which involve killing off cheap models like desperate mercs and canines just to get flesh constructs etc? i know that it works, but i just hate this idea of killing your own models, instead of the enemies, it almost seems like cheating, and definitely unrealistic, and i wanted to know other peoples opinions as well as any more "Classic" mcmourning/nicodem list which involves getting your corpses from the enemy!

[Ratty]

The simple answer is no... The complex answer is it's no longer viable. Originally dogs could dig for corpses and there were far more crews that dropped corpses. These days you can play that way against crews that drop corpses. However you can't guarantee the enemy will drop corpse. There is at least one crew in each faction that doesn't. Therefore you need to assume that you will have to get them from your own crew, even if you don't end up cutting up your own side.

Also nothing seems wrong with McMourning cutting up his own crew to make new creations, I think he's beyond caring which crew the parts for his next experiment.

Saying that it is possible just to start with big models and just resurrect them when they die. This is sometimes advisable when going against Neverborn as they will generally take Kidnap against Rezers.

Edited October 17, 2011 by Ratty

[the_madhatter1]

The simple answer is no... The complex answer is it's no longer viable. Originally dogs could dig for corpses and there were far more crews that dropped corpses. These days you can play that way against crews that drop corpses. However you can't guarantee the enemy will drop corpse. There is at least one crew in each faction that doesn't. Therefore you need to assume that you will have to get them from your own crew, even if you don't end up cutting up your own side.

Also nothing seems wrong with McMourning cutting up his own crew to make new creations, I think he's beyond caring which crew the parts for his next experiment.

I see your point and on a after thought it might make sense mcmourning hiring a cheap mercenary before mercilessley chopping them up to make something bigger, but as for dogs i do actually like them on gtheir own as i think they are quite good for their price and can do good damage in packs, i suppose one of the points i wanted to bring up is using dogs not cobbeled together into a flesh construct as they seems to have a decent damage line and good defence

Edited October 17, 2011 by the_madhatter1

[Calmdown]

No. You cant rely on ever being able to get corpse counters from an enemy. I mean, look at the 'popular' lists that get played:

Neverborn - Lilitu, Lelu, Dolls & Constructs. All/most Nerverborn lists run their master + maybe the odd living model.

Resurrectionists - Against Kirai, no corpses. Against anyone else, you contend with your mirror for corpses.

Guild - Hoffman, Watchers, Peacekeeper, soon to be Warden. A lot of Guild lists will drop corpses but not all of the models. Also Guild have the potential to actively remove the counters.

Arcanists - Ramos lists; few-no corpses. Collette lists; very few corpses, dropped by generally tough models. Only against Rasputina and Marcus can you reliably expect corpses.

Outcasts - Leveticus drops few/no corpses. Gremlins drop corpses everywhere. Viks also drop a good amount of corpses.

Against very, very few enemies in 'modern' Malifaux are you supplied with counters reliably. Every faction other than Outcasts has multiple, popular lists that will drop almost none (often just the master). Hence, building a list that relies on corpse counters from your enemies is foolish.

McMourning of course, cares a bit less about this change in the game since he can carve bits off any enemy. That said, during the odd game I've had with McMourning where I've actually picked up corpse counters from enemies - even just 1 - it's amazing what a difference that makes to your throughput. I dont honestly ever have issues with doing stuff with McMourning in general but even one extra counter often means summoning an extra Flesh Construct. (as an aside, I think McMourning is one of the best masters in the game outside of Tier 1, and I think he actually can hold his own against Tier 1 masters better than many non-Tier 1 masters can)

Nicodem of course, is another animal. Poor guy.

Edited October 17, 2011 by Calmdown

[demkoenig]

Honestly, I don't think Nicodem is super corpse counter dependent.

I run Nico with Punk Zombies, a Belle, a Vulture, and maybe Mortimer. Then use the Belle to Lure Nico up and use Nico for Bolster and Rigor Mortis. I don't think Nico's AP is well spent Reanimating, UNLESS you can get a Flesh Construct, and even then, it is a rare case.

Now, when the Necrotic Machine comes out, I was thinking of running Nico with a Necrotic Machine and Von Schill (or would that violate two SF?) and making Von Schill Undead so he can be affected by Bolster. (Speaking of non-classic lists)

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

No. You cant rely on ever being able to get corpse counters from an enemy. I mean, look at the 'popular' lists that get played:

Neverborn - Lilitu, Lelu, Dolls & Constructs. All/most Nerverborn lists run their master + maybe the odd living model.

Resurrectionists - Against Kirai, no corpses. Against anyone else, you contend with your mirror for corpses.

Guild - Hoffman, Watchers, Peacekeeper, soon to be Warden. A lot of Guild lists will drop corpses but not all of the models. Also Guild have the potential to actively remove the counters.

Arcanists - Ramos lists; few-no corpses. Collette lists; very few corpses, dropped by generally tough models. Only against Rasputina and Marcus can you reliably expect corpses.

Outcasts - Leveticus drops few/no corpses. Gremlins drop corpses everywhere. Viks also drop a good amount of corpses.

To op yes I still bring lists like that and dogs are great against just about every crew except Lady J. I just wouldn't suggest all dogs. Diversify your list where it can run without absolute dependency on counters and you should be fine. Also post an example of the lists you are contemplating that should help give more constructive feedback.

Against very, very few enemies in 'modern' Malifaux are you supplied with counters reliably. Every faction other than Outcasts has multiple, popular lists that will drop almost none (often just the master). Hence, building a list that relies on corpse counters from your enemies is foolish.

McMourning of course, cares a bit less about this change in the game since he can carve bits off any enemy. That said, during the odd game I've had with McMourning where I've actually picked up corpse counters from enemies - even just 1 - it's amazing what a difference that makes to your throughput. I dont honestly ever have issues with doing stuff with McMourning in general but even one extra counter often means summoning an extra Flesh Construct. (as an aside, I think McMourning is one of the best masters in the game outside of Tier 1, and I think he actually can hold his own against Tier 1 masters better than many non-Tier 1 masters can)

Nicodem of course, is another animal. Poor guy.

Your list shows about half of them do drop. To make your point more clear is if you are playing against factions it is easy for many factions to bring a crew that is less likely to drop counters. If you are playing fixed masters then you can have a better idea.

When playing against neverborn both Lilith, Pandora and zoradia have heavy living lists that work well and could be fielded (not every list is just nightmares and constructs). Only Nico and Mcmounring are the only two who really CAN be counter dependent so when I hear resser that doesn't automatically mean I bring Lady J from guild, dreamer from neverborn, Ramos from arcanist or hamelin from outcast.

So it is still viable to make a corpse dependent list. Is it going to work every time? NO. But is any list always going to work? No, unless they are broken, and there aren't any really.

[Calmdown]

So it is still viable to make a corpse dependent list. Is it going to work every time? NO. But is any list always going to work? No, unless they are broken, and there aren't any really.

You draw a very different conclusion than I do. If it's possible against every faction - even if it was only infrequent (and the point of my list is that its not; its very frequent) - to get few/no corpse counters, then making a list dependant on corpse counters is an inherently bad idea.

Obviously this is mitigated when you know what master you're facing, but remember; it's possible for Ramos to turn up with beasts, Rasputina to turn up with constructs, etc. You never know what youre going to face.

[Ratty]

I have to agree, even if it is a 1/5 chance it is probably not worth running a list that relies entirely on the enemies corpse counters. I'm not saying don't make a list that summons from corpse counters, but put in contingencies for when you don't have a ready supply.

It's like Zoraida, Zoraida is great and can make a mess of your opponent by Obeying them to attack themselves... However you would be stupid not to put at least one hard hitter on your own team that can be Obeyed if your opponents crew is Immune to Influence. This is why Nekima, Von Schill or a Mature Nephilim appear in Zoraida lists.

[Orboros]

People tend to focus to much on counters when playing Ressers.. i saw people setting up all their shiny counter shenanigans and simply got obilterated next round by a solid meele brick or a gunline.

So a simple no from me aswell.

[d_mun]

Even "back in the day" it seems like it was really hard win games if your plan was just to swarm your opponent with summoned models. While concentrating on the tokens and getting new models the opponents would focus on the strategies and schemes and pull out too far ahead in points.

[Dracomax]

I think at this point, it's probably a sign of a new player; the flavor of the Ressers is that they should summon undead. it looks good on paper. Play experience shows that there are much better options.

[Cornelious1424]

Before I had played with Nico, I thought that the summoning pretty much any Undead, anytime, was his best tactic. A few weeks ago I played a game using Rafkin and Mortimer to try the MZ summoning swarm. To be honest, it doesn't really work. You end of sitting in your deployment zone for 2-3 turns, killing dogs, getting corpses/MZ's, while your opponent is half way to competing their strats and schemes. With that said, I don't really think the sit back and chop your own cheap units to pieces to summon bigger and better really works anymore. It's a waste of time. Summoning is a way to replenish your lines, not fill them and it also gives you versatility. Any role you need filling, you can summon it. All across the boards you saw people saying, "Don't bring Punk Zombies to start, etc". After the past few months of playing Nicodem, that is completely moronic IMO. PZ's are so good for 5ss, and with bolster they get that much better...and if they die just bring them back. Canine remains are nice, but I find that when I send them up into the enemy lines, have them die mid field and drop a counter they allow me to focus on my objectives. Let the enemy do my dirty work for me! I don't play McMourning so I don't know how viable of a tactic that is, seeing that he needs BpC to summon things, but that works for Nico in my experience. You can keep him moving with the rest of his crew. So for me the answer is, not anymore. Just like the classic Seamus list of Belles and nothing more no longer works, the summoning machine is also outdated.

[DeleteAccount]

As I see it, it's probably only worth it in very situational moments or when you are damn sure you can get a lot from it at a very low cost. I'm interested in trying the 2 gaki plus seishin plus healing flip trick with Kirai, a desperate merc and Datsue Ba simply because I can do it in the first turn without it screwing Kirai's activation except for using one of her 0 actions for something different instead of a heal (which she gets anyway from the merc) and slowing down the datsue ba a bit.

[Jmach]

I've been playing McMourning for probably 16 months now and have always ended up butchering 1 or 2 of my own models; 1 for when we only had Flesh Construct, 2 now that we have Rogue Necromancy, however it depends on what my opponent is running, if they run a crew that drops corpses I may only slaughter 1 canine for parts just to get the machine running.

[Darthwaaagh]

I play nico fairly regular and i don't build my list to rely on corpses

from my enemy. But saying that i don't kill my own models that often either. I usally take 3-4 dogs and some Punks and mortimer.

I get mortiy to dig up some corpses and cast fresh meat. with bolster undead dogs are really good with and punks are going to hit anything they attack with 9cb paired weapon. I find the summon spells on the rezzers are a reaction spell not a game plan spell. I summon something out of the corpses morti digs up and replace the dogs that die. But i find if my dogs kill something before dying so much the better.

[Spoonfunk]

Now I haven't been playing Malifaux for too long so take this with a grain of salt.

The way I look at Nico is similair to Cornelius is that the big advantage with reanimator is not the ability to summon and swarm your enemy, simply because 1) you can't rely on your opponent playing with models that drop counters 2) It isn't efficient to spend turns pumping up the amount of counters on the table.

The way I look at reanimator is simply a way to refill your lines, meta against you opponent mid-game, and cut costs. If my PZ goes down then I can replace him pretty easily (if that's what I need). If my opponent takes a powerful melee unit I can pop out a belle or crooked man to shut him down. If I take 3 canine remains to summon a flesh construct and a PZ saving 6 soul stones!

While reanimator is a good addition and should definetly be a tool to be used with a list. The summoning geared lists don't seem to be able to be able to compete currently.

[Haystacks]

I don't have DrMcM yet, but with nico is just run a list of cheep efficent guys, start with belles, crookeds, punks, and when they fall over upgrade them. I find nico is better bolstering and decaying things.