When Are You Defending In A Duel

[Makaiju]

WEiRD sKeTCH all ready provided a clarification for my gaming group a month or so back. He said:

"performing a test against Terrifying is a Simple Duel. No attacker and no Defender. Stubborn only works if they are defending in a Duel."

Some new local players are pushing back because some models have abilities that say make a WP test against #X. Not "make opposed WP duels".

My understanding of 'simple duels' is any duel against a set number and means the person making the test is NOT a defender. Even if that effect comes from an enemy model.

I can not however find clearly worded rules that say either way. Is there a page reference or forum post I'm missing that clearly states that for people?

[Lucidicide]

I believe page 18 is a source in the RM.

Basically, I think there needs to be an attack to have a defender. Attacks are defined on page 18, and it discusses being a defender.

I just don't have conclusive evidence that that is the only time you're a defender. I'm just pretty sure

[Mike3838]

Short answer: you're a defender if someone/something is attacking you (see definition of attack).

Not sure which abilities you're referring to but I suspect they're not attacks.

Mike

[Fading Memory]

Abilities like, Harmless, Terrifying, and Irresistible have no attackers or defenders. They are simple duels. Simple duels have no attacker or defender. To have an attacker and defender, there must be an opposed duel-both players need to be flipping cards.

[Makaiju]

Thank you everyone. This gives me enough to bring back to the stores to get everyone on the dame page of the rules.

[Morgan Vening]

Abilities like, Harmless, Terrifying, and Irresistible have no attackers or defenders. They are simple duels. Simple duels have no attacker or defender. To have an attacker and defender, there must be an opposed duel-both players need to be flipping cards.

Only problem with that, is when you have things like The Hanged's Condemned Whispers. A model is definitely the defender when The Hanged shoots with CW, but isn't the defender when taking the subsequent Simple Duel?

I agree that RAW (and probably RAI) says that it's two different things, but it's arguably counter-intuitive.

Would have been much easier if Stubborn and similar effects had been written as "This model receives +2Wp in Opposed Duels when it is the defender."

[ZiggyQubert]

Would have been much easier if Stubborn and similar effects had been written as "This model receives +2Wp in Opposed Duels when it is the defender."

except there are times (for instance restisting a spell) that don't fall under that broad category.. The current wording also allows for future abilities to state something like "Target model must win a 12->wp duel or..."

[Fading Memory]

Only problem with that, is when you have things like The Hanged's Condemned Whispers. A model is definitely the defender when The Hanged shoots with CW, but isn't the defender when taking the subsequent Simple Duel?

Correct, that is a Simple Duel added in after a model is damaged by Condemned Whispers. It is a separate duel from the opposed duel made by Condemned Whispers.

[Hatchethead]

Correct, that is a Simple Duel added in after a model is damaged by Condemned Whispers. It is a separate duel from the opposed duel made by Condemned Whispers.

Exactly this. Condemned Whispers generates two separate duels. The initial Strike duel (obviously an attack) and, assuming the target is damaged by the strike, a second simple Wp duel. The second duel does NOT count as an attack as per page 18, meaning Immune to Influence, Stubborn and such do not apply.

Is it intuitive? Not really, at least not until you realize how important page 18 is, the distinction between an attack and non-attack. Once you absorb the information and appreciate the significance, you'll be looking for non-attacks everywhere, at which point you'll also come to realize a) how rare they are and they do in fact make sense on base, logical level. Heck, even the fluff often supports the mechanic.

For instance: The Condemned Whisper itself is an attack that potentially causes damage, the truth plunged into your brain like a psychic spike, at which point The Hanged has completed it's interaction with the target model. 1 Dg, maybe 2. Minor nose bleed, no problem.

THEN, the target model must reckon with the secret it has been told, represented by the separate Wp duel. The Hanged has nothing to do with this secondary duel, it has already drifted off and is causing mischief elsewhere; but it becomes a struggle for the target model to hold his or her ground, struggling to comprehend the horrible, unassailable truth ...

Edited October 14, 2011 by Hatchethead