Friekcorps Specialist - Totally Boggled on Intent/Resolution

[Mr_Smigs]

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=25714

(and the threads linked therein)

Detonate/Explode Tanks

Totally confused here.

New thread to find clarity.

1. Is this a Pulse ability (Is it ignored by Freikcorps Armor)?

2. Does it Make Ranged Strikes? or just use them to determine who is affected?

3. If it makes Ranged Strikes how does it target models in Melee?

4. If it makes Ranged Strikes, can it still be used when the Specialist is in Melee?

5. If it makes Ranged Strikes, do abilities that modify Ranged Strikes apply to it?

Specifically - Was this intended to be a damaging Pulse that might not affect all models in the blast.

Or was this indented to be something akin to Caine's Maelstrom in warmachine (a single model spinning in the air firing at everything all at once)?

[bucket_boy101]

It is a pulse that generates ranged Strikes. These strikes are not ignored by freikorps (as Strikes are not direct Damage such as Sonnia's Inferno ability). It cannot be used in melee, as it generates Ranged strikes (perhaps the word "ranged" should be capitalised or have the in the ability's range).

[Mr_Smigs]

and thus this whole question.

Would the ability better read:

"This model makes 1 Ranged Strike against each model within 6 inches" rather than have a Pulse icon?

[Issalbotproto]

Perhaps Wyrd liked the idea of using a pulse instead, pulses are not limited to a concept of damage they are simply a short cut was of saying "everything within x inches" so in this case it is reading "every target within 6 inches is hit with a ranged attack"

Also, in the errata they state that freikorps armor does not ignore detonate tanks as their armor ignores damage from a pulse

[Cunning]

Also pulses are affected by things like Hoffman's Dampening (I think it's called)

[demkoenig]

I hate to throw up more confusion, but I remember reading about this and I thought the ability was a pulse that generated an effect where the model took a ranged strike, but not ranged strike action, against every model within six inches.

Because it isn't a ranged strike action, it can be taken in melee and doesn't flip to see who it targets, but it doesn't target.

I'll see if my search fu can turn up the older thread.

EDIT: Found this

Well, never mind. I can't find what I thought I saw.

That seems really silly, though.

Detonate Tanks: Do this action when you're not in melee range in order to hurt everything around you. This is because when your tanks blow up, they don't hurt things within 1-2" of you, but will hurt things over 2 or 3 (or in Lillitu's case 4") away.

Edited October 11, 2011 by demkoenig

[Fading Memory]

I am pretty sure you can use it in Melee as it is a pulse. Pulses are not ranged attacks.

The pulse creates an effect allowing you to make the ranged actions. If the skill said all models "within 6 inches make a ranged strike" and did not have the pulse symbol, I would say no you can not make the strikes. But the skill is a pulse, not a ranged strike.

The model is not attempting to target a model with his flamethrower. He is blowing up his tanks....BOOM. Booms are not ranged attacks; they are shock waves. Shock waves are not ranged attacks.

[Calmdown]

Not sure what's so complicated about this.

The pulse happens.

The effect of the pulse hitting a model, is to make a ranged strike against the model.

Simples.

[Mr_Smigs]

I am pretty sure you can use it in Melee as it is a pulse. Pulses are not ranged attacks.

The pulse creates an effect allowing you to make the ranged actions. If the skill said all models "within 6 inches make a ranged strike" and did not have the pulse symbol, I would say no you can not make the strikes. But the skill is a pulse, not a ranged strike.

The model is not attempting to target a model with his flamethrower. He is blowing up his tanks....BOOM. Booms are not ranged attacks; they are shock waves. Shock waves are not ranged attacks.

and thus where the initial question started.

if the intent is to generate a series of targets for a pack of ranged strikes,

then why does it have a Pulse symbol.

if the intent is to generate a Pulse that hits or misses based on the Cb of the ranged weapon. why does it say "ranged strike" instead of "strike using the flamenwoofer Cb"

[Fading Memory]

and thus where the initial question started.

if the intent is to generate a series of targets for a pack of ranged strikes,

then why does it have a Pulse symbol.

if the intent is to generate a Pulse that hits or misses based on the Cb of the ranged weapon. why does it say "ranged strike" instead of "strike using the flamenwoofer Cb"

The use of the pulse is so that it is allowed to be used in melee. It says "ranged strike" because that is much easier than saying

" 'strike using the flamenwoofer Cb.' " It's a pulse treated like a ranged attack.

from the Errata

"NOTE: - 'Detonate Tanks' creates a pulse that doesn't directly do damage so the Freikorps Armor does not protect against it. The Strike generated by 'Detonate Tanks' counts as being made by a Flammenwerfer so ignores Armor and cover modifiers."

Its kind of like Stitched Together's Creepy Fog. It't not terrain, but treated like terrain, so Masters of Malifaux and Hunter can't see through it because it is an ability. The only person that can see through it is Hans.

Detonate Tanks is a pulse treated like a ranged attack, but it is still a pulse and therefore can be used in melee.

[Keltheos]

Not sure what's so complicated about this.

The pulse happens.

The effect of the pulse hitting a model, is to make a ranged strike against the model.

Simples.

This. It's no more complex than this.

It also allows it to be used in melee as well as to designate the Ranged Strikes are simultaneous in their resolution.

[Mr_Smigs]

ok, it's a pulse, so it can be USED,

but it makes Ranged Strikes, which cannot be done in melee combat.

are you allowed to resolve the attacks if you are in Melee?

[Keltheos]

Yes.

[Mr_Smigs]

ok...

pg 18.... Strikes with melee/ranged Weapons... and Actions that inflict Dg or Wd on another model or require an Opposed Duel.

pg 41... a model making a Strike with a ranged weapon is making a ranged attack and any modifiers that affect models making ranged attacks apply... and models engeged in melee cannot make ranged attacks.

doesn't that mean that the detonate is a ranged attack, and cannot be used in melee?

[Keltheos]

We can debate how it's worded, but the response for the Detonate Tanks Action is that it is a pulse which generates Ranged Strikes against all models in the area, and can be used while the Specialist is in melee.

If we get techincal, Detonate Tanks is not a Weapon and the pulse the Action generates does not itself require opposed Duels, it creates Ranged Strikes which do. Again, we can debate whether folks agree with the wording or not (or if it should change in future printings of the card), but it should be applied as indicated above.

Edited October 11, 2011 by Keltheos

[Hatchethead]

How does this compare to something like Santiago's Leadstorm, Kel? Leadstorm is listed as a "Ranged Pulse", with both the and icons. I assume this means it CANNOT be used while in melee? It doesn't generate Strikes, of course, just a flat Dg 4 to everything in range.

Whereas Detonate Tanks can be used in melee thanks to the absence of the icon, it is otherwise the same as per a normal Ranged attack (enemy models can claim cover, must flip for firing into melee, etc) ...?

Edited October 11, 2011 by Hatchethead

[Mr_Smigs]

what other ranged strike rules does this ability ignore.

if the friekcorps specialist is in melee with a model,

and uses the abilitiy,

do they have to flip as per a ranged strike into melee with the chance of hitting themselves?

[Fading Memory]

what other ranged strike rules does this ability ignore.

if the friekcorps specialist is in melee with a model,

and uses the abilitiy,

do they have to flip as per a ranged strike into melee with the chance of hitting themselves?

It's a pulse. Pulses do not affect the acting player unless otherwise stated.

[Fading Memory]

How does this compare to something like Santiago's Leadstorm, Kel? Leadstorm is listed as a "Ranged Pulse", with both the and icons. I assume this means it CANNOT be used while in melee? It doesn't generate Strikes, of course, just a flat Dg 4 to everything in range.

Whereas Detonate Tanks can be used in melee thanks to the absence of the icon, it is otherwise the same as per a normal Ranged attack (enemy models can claim cover, must flip for firing into melee, etc) ...?

The Specialist loses his ranged weapon for the rest of the game. Santiago and the Gunsmith get to keep their ranged weapon.

[Mr_Smigs]

It's a pulse. Pulses do not affect the acting player unless otherwise stated.

as stated above,

the Detonate Tanks Action is that it is a pulse which generates Ranged Strikes against all models in the area

the pulse may not target the initial model,

but what about the ranged strikes.

we're already ignoring the standard "no ranged strikes in melee"

do we also ignore the "randomize shots targeted in melee"?

do we ignore the "+1 Df for models in melee..."?

do we ignore any abilities that modify ranged attacks?

[Necromorph]

I feel like this discussion has happened already.

He's blowing up his freaking tanks. Its a giant explosion and fireball. Anything near him gets hit. Being in melee with him will not help you at all.

The point of the wording is to say that all models in range are equally effected, the type of attack is moot. Everyone in the pulse takes an equal share.

[Mr_Smigs]

I feel like this discussion has happened already.

He's blowing up his freaking tanks. Its a giant explosion and fireball. Anything near him gets hit. Being in melee with him will not help you at all.

The point of the wording is to say that all models in range are equally effected, the type of attack is moot. Everyone in the pulse takes an equal share.

but... they don't...

models in a defensive stance, or with naturally high Def, can actually make it out of the pulse unscathed.

equal share would basically just be "Shatter 4" ...

not a series of attacks with trigger options.

[Keltheos]

I'm about ready to invoke Facepalm.

The Specialist generates a pulse, not a ranged attack.

The pulse generates one ranged strike Duel per model within the pulse (not the Specialist).

These ranged strikes are resolved simultaneously.

The pulse can be activated and the ranged strikes resolved if the Specialist is in melee.

The pulse is not 'shooting into melee' as it's not a ranged attack so you do not randomize targets nor do the models receive +1 Df.

[Hatchethead]

I'm about ready to invoke Facepalm.

The Specialist generates a pulse, not a ranged attack.

The pulse generates one ranged strike Duel per model within the pulse (not the Specialist).

These ranged strikes are resolved simultaneously.

The pulse can be activated and the ranged strikes resolved if the Specialist is in melee.

The pulse is not 'shooting into melee' as it's not a ranged attack so you do not randomize targets nor do the models receive +1 Df.

No need to invoke the palm! Everything makes sense to me except the last point. The pulse occurs, the ranged strikes are generated. Each model in range is attacked. The resulting ranged strikes do not adhere to the rules for ranged strikes (cover modifiers, randomized into melee, etc.)? I'm not asking about the pulse, I'm asking about the ranged strikes generated by the pulse.

Or are thy not actually ranged with a capital ? The pulse isn't generating Ranged () Strikes, it's simply generating duels (hence your emphasis)?

Edited October 12, 2011 by Hatchethead

[psychocamel]

but... they don't...

models in a defensive stance, or with naturally high Def, can actually make it out of the pulse unscathed.

That doesn't stop it being an equal share, it just means some of them managed to avoid the share thrown at them =p

[Mr_Smigs]

The resulting ranged strikes do not adhere to the rules for ranged strikes (cover modifiers, randomized into melee, etc.)? I'm not asking about the pulse, I'm asking about the ranged strikes generated by the pulse.

This.

Thank you hatchethead for clarifying the question.

the standing ruling seems to be that even though it uses the term "Ranged Strike" (A well defined game term)

the attacks generated by the pulse are, in fact, NOT, Ranged Strikes.

am I getting that?

and if so, why are they called "Ranged Strikes"?

Keltheos, you state at one point they were Duels, not strikes. Is that what the wording is supposed to be?

again, was the intent that this is supposed to be just the Duel portion of a ranged strike, none of the targeting or restrictions?

in that case, does it ignore LOS?

Edited October 12, 2011 by Mr_Smigs