Combat Duel Totals?

[Fading Memory]

For Actions like Gamble Your Life and Hangman's Knot, are they affected by combat duel totals for , , or even flips? We had always played yes, but then realized they are not Stikes, so played the that it was just a single flip and could be cheated if the action said "it may be cheated." I know I'm probably answering my own question, but just making sure.

Edited October 9, 2011 by Fading Memory

[Ozz]

Never thought of that, but ive always just used the Gamble your life thing as an attack, so taken the positive/negative as it would have been normally.

[Issalbotproto]

anything with a resist stat is concidered an attack, and is subject to and flips

[Fading Memory]

anything with a resist stat is concidered an attack, and is subject to and flips

I know they are attacks I shouldn't have put that word in my post. But they are not Strikes. The combat modifier falls under Strikes. Attacks and Strikes are two different things. Strikes are Attacks. Not all Attacks are Strikes.

[Issalbotproto]

Fate modifiers are not limited to strikes, anytime there is an x/x/x fate modifers are applied unless is says "unmodified"

[Hatchethead]

The combat modifier falls under Strikes.

Does it? Page 25, under "Twisting Fate". It doesn't seem to make any specific mention of Strike actions. "Fate modifiers increase the number of cards flipped when resolving a game event ..." It can apply to anything, though most instances of and apply to a specific type of flip (attack, damage, Morale duels, flips involving a certain stat, etc).

If you have a during Wp duels, I see no reason why that wouldn't apply to the opposed Wp > Wp "Gamble Your Life" duel.

Does anyone else still call them positive and negative twists? Or is it just me?

Edited October 9, 2011 by Hatchethead

[edonil]

I do...

[dgraz]

Does anyone else still call them positive and negative twists? Or is it just me?

What else would you call it?

[Hatchethead]

What else would you call it?

Positive or negative "fate modifier".

I don't recall seeing the term "twist" in the Rules Manual, not in relation to ... I assume the term was abandoned after Book 1.

[dgraz]

I don't think I ever even recognized the term "fate modifier"....I probably saw it and my brain auto-translated it to "positive or negative twist".

[Hatchethead]

Wyrd, I reject your fate modifier and substitute my own.

[edonil]

Wyrd, I reject your fate modifier and substitute my own.

(snicker) Nice.

[dgraz]

It's that whole old dog / new trick thing. Twist is what I learned so they can call it whatever they want but it'll still be twist to me.

Hell, I still don't think that 'word' is a term of agreement.....

it's a 4-letter word, 'W' in the front, 'OR' in the middle, and 'D' on the end. (Name that movie....)

[Fading Memory]

Back on topic....an opposed duel does not necessarily mean its a combat duel. Spells with the melee and ranged symbols are classified as melee and ranged attacks to determine "a Combat Total." Spells without these symbols do not have combat modifiers. Actions and some spells don't have these symbols; therefore, they are not Opposed Combat Duel = No Combat Fate Modifier.

[Hatchethead]

So you're differentiating between a "fate modifier" and a "combat fate modifier"? Because you can have a fate modifier in a duel that has nothing to do with combat.

[Fading Memory]

So you're differentiating between a "fate modifier" and a "combat fate modifier"? Because you can have a fate modifier in a duel that has nothing to do with combat.

Correct. For example, Self-Loathing has a damage flip but no combat modifier. You win the duel flip two cards and pick the lowest. So similar actions with damage flips and no combat modifier should not follow the rules for determining how many cards to flip for damage.

Edited October 9, 2011 by Fading Memory

[Hatchethead]

I see. Well ... I'm not entirely sure, to be honest.

If I had to whip up a ruling, I'd probably say that "Gamble Your Life" would end up with a positive or negative twist on the damage flip, dependent on the result of the opposed Wp duel. I see no reason to think otherwise. Hangman's Knot is fairly clear cut. It's a Spell with a Wp resist and a damage line, I see no reason why it wouldn't benefit from based on the casting flip versus resist flip result.

Self-Loathing is a Spell with a resist and is therefore an attack. Regardless, it ends up with a casting total versus a resist total, giving you a differential. I see no reason why it couldn't be further modified beyond the mentioned in the Spell description. The flip cannot be cheated, but that doesn't mean it can't be modified.

Say we have a Talent or Spell that reads: "Enemy models activating within 3" suffer Dg 1/2/3." Here I see a flip that cannot be modified with positive or negative twists (it specifically states "unmodified"). Even if it could be modified, there's no duel from which to draw and compare numbers, no differential ... unless the attacking model is under an effect that grants to all Dg flips, I suppose.

That's just my take on it, but I honestly don't know.

SIDE NOTE: I'm honestly not sure why "Gamble Your Life" specifies that the flip may be cheated. It's a damage flip and damage flips can be cheated by rule of page 45. I assume it is meant as reminder text and nothing more.

Edited October 9, 2011 by Hatchethead

[Fading Memory]

The reason I'm debating is because when the term "Combat Modifier" is used, it's used under the Strike Attack Sequence p42. The term is not used anywhere else. If it was, I wouldn't be arguing my case. These actions are not Strikes. If they are not Strikes, why should they follow the rules for Combat Modifiers?

[Hatchethead]

Is "combat" ever defined as a game term encompassing only melee and ranged Strikes? Not trying to be a smartass, I'm genuinely unsure.

[Issalbotproto]

page 54. 4. apply spell effects read that paragraph and example

[Fading Memory]

page 54. 4. apply spell effects read that paragraph and example

Totally, totally missed that :club:

Well, it seems actions like Gamble Your Life that have damage flips would be RAI why leave them out, so it would have a Combat Modifier.

[Hatchethead]

page 54. 4. apply spell effects read that paragraph and example

Yeah. The final sentence of the red "Resist Example" is pretty clear. "Combat" is never really defined as encompassing only melee and ranged Strikes. It appears to include all forms of mental combat as well; Wp and Spell resist duels, for example.

[Issalbotproto]

Yup yup glad I could help.

[demkoenig]

So all spells that require a resist duel or come from enemy models are ranged attacks?

I ask because:

Steampunk Abomination uses Anomaly: Cannot be targeted by ranged attacks.

Belle attempts to Lure Steampunk Abomination.

Lure fails, because Lure is a ranged attack?

Would Lure be affected by cover?

[Satyrwyld]

So all spells that require a resist duel or come from enemy models are ranged attacks?

I ask because:

Steampunk Abomination uses Anomaly: Cannot be targeted by ranged attacks.

Belle attempts to Lure Steampunk Abomination.

Lure fails, because Lure is a ranged attack?

Would Lure be affected by cover?

An attack does one or more of the following: targets an enemy model, causes a defense or resist flip. (Might be forgetting one, no book handy). Ranged actions have a next to their range indicator. If it does not have that icon, it is not a ranged attack.

Steampunk Abominations using anomaly cannot be hit with spells.

Lure, however, lacks and so is not ranged. It will never hit another target in melee, anomaly does not protect against it, and cover does not apply.

[Fading Memory]

Spells with are used to clarify if the model can cast it in combat, and used to see if i can hit a model that has special abilities or rules against ranged attacks.