M_Ruckuss Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 (edited) Having played alot of Pandora, and NEVER failing to enjoy again with Lilith (who is the perfect combination of subtly and blunt if your just looking for a good game imo!) I have turned my attention to Zoraida. Where Pandora has synnergy with most other models, and Lilith has the obvious nephilim ties, I have found it much harder to decide upon a "stock" list (taking into account the need to pick crews on a mission by mission basis for) Zoraida. I tried sluirid, which I found to be good but squishy, as well as my beloved stitched and lilitu, but found I ended up running around the board not achieving much. I feel part of this was due to the inability of my models to engage and a general lack of hitting power. Where Pandora can move insanely quickly and is very hurty, and Lilith is just sexy sword wielding carnage, I have actually found getting to grips with Z more of a challenge than Pandora-mainly due to indecisive crew selection and improper use of Z. I think I may have (finally!) begun to learn a thing or two, and would love others players to comment/share their expertise!!!! 35ss Zoroida Cache 7ss/5ss x3 Terror Tots 9ss Hooded rider 8ss Juju/Von Schill/ Mature Nephilim/ Jack Daw 10ss 7 Cache- 2 Wicked Dolls/ Baby Kade6ss 5 Cache- 2 IM/ 2 Effigies 8ss The idea with this list is that I have ALOT of melee potential, and have ‘spread’ suit requirements; Kade needs crows, while the Nephilim need masks.. Meanwhile the rider and the other big hitter are drawing fire/models out where I can engage them. The tots are one of my fav models-flay, df6 and sprint-will allow me to go after objectives, and can always grow if I feel the need! The hooded rider is quick, untouchable from ranged attacks, and (I feel) compliments the other elements nicely )despite being immune to obey). I am a late fan of his, but rate him now. The other big hitter, likely to be von schill for versatility, (but I will change as needed) will form the basis of my attack, backed up by the rider. I actually like the look of Kade in this list- what do others think? Dolls better with their synergy, or lose some soulstones to whop in an insidious madness or two, or even some effergies? I know the final selection depends on strategies and opposition, but do any of my musings make Edited October 9, 2011 by McDoogle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fading Memory Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 I really like taking Jack Daw with Zoraida. She can remove the drawbacks to him and he is hard to take down. He is also really good at keeping your opponents hand in check. With aZoraida, you can manage to keep cards in your hand to keep him alive, you don't have to be as careful with hand control. The Arcane Effigy is good too. It lets Z cast two (1) spells and create a doll. She becomes a "baby factory." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Ruckuss Posted October 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 I really like taking Jack Daw with Zoraida. She can remove the drawbacks to him and he is hard to take down. He is also really good at keeping your opponents hand in check. With aZoraida, you can manage to keep cards in your hand to keep him alive, you don't have to be as careful with hand control. The Arcane Effigy is good too. It lets Z cast two (1) spells and create a doll. She becomes a "baby factory." Thanks for the reply. I like Jack Daw, particularly as there may well be some fluff synergy (hinted at in the new book), and he is certainly a good option. I also noted the arcane effigy-really like it! I like the idea of using it with a Zoraida/Collodi crew- which i'm currently staying sway from as its all the rave! Jack is definitely a model to consider though- him, tots and the rider would definitely be handful! Any thoughts on Kade? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Shine Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 I feel its important with Z to have a heavy hitter in your list who is NOT immune to influence. You can conduit obey you enemy's models with Z, but you want to use Magical Extension on the doll to obey your own model, auto fail the resist and get a free charge/(1) action Even better second turn to activate Doll first -> Obey, then Zoraida makes a new one and uses her last ap for Obey, then a third Obey with the new doll Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Ruckuss Posted October 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 I feel its important with Z to have a heavy hitter in your list who is NOT immune to influence. You can conduit obey you enemy's models with Z, but you want to use Magical Extension on the doll to obey your own model, auto fail the resist and get a free charge/(1) action Even better second turn to activate Doll first -> Obey, then Zoraida makes a new one and uses her last ap for Obey, then a third Obey with the new doll I agree, hence von schill or Neph being most likely selection. Other options are still sound. If I obey a Tot using a thirteen mask say, can I use Z's Bayou 2 card, or does the action still count as the Tots? Also if I obey an enemy model into attacking another enemy model would it count as my model (for things like slaughter vp, Pandoras defence WP duels etc) or my opponents? Thats a neat trick with the Voodoo doll. Sat I re-conduited the same targer, would it lose more/less/the same wounds from poison? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studderingdave Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 mature neph works best for me. even weak damage is rough to deal with for a lot of models, and the extra obey swing later in the round usually causes serious issues Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Bigglesworth Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 Keep in mind raw states you can't have von schill who is special forces in with wicked dolls who are another type of special forces and it unclear if you can summon them in, but it is likely you can't. Of the three ten points mature is probably best choice. Hooded rider is great but as stated prior probably not first choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoreyMalifaux Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 Ok so granted I've never played Z or Pandora. I think you would get more bang for your buck by taking 2 more wicked dolls in place of Kade. Sure Z can make them, remember you get bonuses when they are in groups so the more the merrier. Plus a 0 action heal makes me choose wicked dolls any day of the week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciaran Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 I agree, hence von schill or Neph being most likely selection. Other options are still sound. If I obey a Tot using a thirteen mask say, can I use Z's Bayou 2 card, or does the action still count as the Tots? Also if I obey an enemy model into attacking another enemy model would it count as my model (for things like slaughter vp, Pandoras defence WP duels etc) or my opponents? Thats a neat trick with the Voodoo doll. Sat I re-conduited the same targer, would it lose more/less/the same wounds from poison? Bayou Two Card in that case wouldn't work. It has to be Z's duel. You were on the right track The model that you Obey is controlled by you, all duels, resists, etc... for that AP or Charge is controlled by you. It doesn't count as part of your crew for VP's etc... The Conduit drops two poison counters on the target at the start close phase. If there's only one (or none) on the other model, it replaces them. When that model next activates if there are poison counters still on it it takes that many wounds, and removes one. (I found it easier to explain the entire process to be sure I didn't screw something up) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Ruckuss Posted October 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 Ok so granted I've never played Z or Pandora. I think you would get more bang for your buck by taking 2 more wicked dolls in place of Kade. Sure Z can make them, remember you get bonuses when they are in groups so the more the merrier. Plus a 0 action heal makes me choose wicked dolls any day of the week. A good point- dolls are quite tasty. @Bigglesworth & studderingdave: I've never started a game with a Mature- am tempted to with Z....thanks for the input will give it a go. @Ciaran- right, so the poison doesnt change as its a different phase...sweet. Figured I couldnt... (oh well mature Neph with the Avatar it is then!) So to clarify if I were cast obey on an enemy model and force it to attack an enemy model I control all the flips-that bit I get. How about these 2 specific examples: If I kill the model it wouldnt count for vp for slaughter as it was killed by an enemy model If I cause a lelu say to charge/attack Pandora does he still have to win a wp-wp duel or irresistable/harmless/fearless etc Cheers for all the replies... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciaran Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 So to clarify if I were cast obey on an enemy model and force it to attack an enemy model I control all the flips-that bit I get. How about these 2 specific examples: If I kill the model it wouldnt count for vp for slaughter as it was killed by an enemy model If I cause a lelu say to charge/attack Pandora does he still have to win a wp-wp duel or irresistable/harmless/fearless etc Cheers for all the replies... If you kill a model that way it WILL count for VP's, I thought you were asking a different question, my apologies. Yes, he does. Any time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Ruckuss Posted October 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 Cheers bud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozz Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 Another option is if you find the points anywhere, a madness, with the Rider, madness has gun fighter so he can be obeyed to hit him, (assuming there isnt a benefit to you being immune still) then you can obey the rider, and have the madness to land near the target of the doll for the negative to WP duels making it much easier for you to cast the spell or whatever other uses you may come up with for the madness, or just remove your opponents immunity's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Bigglesworth Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 You still get vp for slaughter if you obey an enemy model to kill an enemy model. Obeyed model counts as friendly till spell is resolved. As for target duels yes you have to go through all that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Ruckuss Posted October 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 You still get vp for slaughter if you obey an enemy model to kill an enemy model. Obeyed model counts as friendly till spell is resolved. As for target duels yes you have to go through all that. Thanks Bigglesworth. @ ozz thanks for the advice- will give it a go! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
011121 Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 hrrrrm, a fast moving hard hitter who can synergize with zoraida. Collodi Collodi Collodi Zoraida can summon him wicked dolls, he can zip around with the marionettes, he's not immune to influence, he synergizes well with wicked dolls/effigies/stitched, and he can lay down a serious smack down with marionettes getting up to 5 attacks each. He also gives you anti-construct ability that Zoraida lacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Shine Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 Collodi hits hard with his puppets, but isnt a hard hitter himself. If you obey him you get to hit for mediocre damage. Not saying he doesnt synergize well, but for the purposes of an obey, there are much better options. I like hitting things with Nekima myself. If only cause I like the model. And the model carries a great big beat stick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
011121 Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 The point of obeying collodi isn't to get another attack off but to get him to use yet another doll boosting power or construct annoying power. That said his attack isn't useless by any means, particularly if you get off the slow trigger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Ruckuss Posted October 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 (edited) I have got 3 games under my belt now with Zoraida- the minimum "test period" many feel. Had 2 wins and a loss with Z- really enjoying her play style. The first 2 games were a while , so forgive the brief description! I was playing against a freikorps crews backed by Hamelin and Taelor. They were a pain to play! The first game was turf war and I ended up losing 4-2. Used 2 insidious madnesses with rider, von schill and 3 tots. I (stupidly) changed the hooded riders ability from night to noon over 2 turns in combat with von schill. He leaped. I died...! My von schill did ok but I just didnt use Zoraida correctly, but learned alot from the experience. The second game was an equally close fought reconnoiter, but I won 6-0 thanks to the tots speed.I swapped the IM for Coppelius (which I later realised I couldn't do-cant hire using cache!). Liked Coppelius, but felt he remained still for too long (I have found timing with him is crucial). I played both games in one afternoon, and have come to value the tots- defence speed and ability to hurt- they are a tasty model. Personally I prefer 5 of them to 3 slurid! Last night I played a 35ss game (again shared turf war) v Sonnia. I was very apprehensive as I havent played her before, and know she can be very anti-magic. This turned out to be the game where I have learned the most, and feel I am close to earning my "journeymans badge" with Z. I took Z, x2 Tots, Rider, von schill and coppelius with cache 7. while my opponent took (av)Sonia, flame, 3 stalkers, hopkins, an austringer and a watcher with a similarly high cache. I deployed von schill in a ruined building on my left, my rider (with night) in the middle to link my 2 "forces", with coppelius and the tots behind a rock and Z on the right flank in open sight. My opponent deployed Samuel on my right, the austringer and the witchlings on my left, with Sonnia in the middle. I took announced hold out and bodyguard Z as schemes, while my opponent took grudge rider and announced breakthrough. I wasted a few activations with my non ranged models before using von schill to jump out, hit a witchling for 4 wounds and jump back again. Sonnia then moved and activated a "be near me and suffer wounds" aura. Last of all i activated Z, cast crystal ball (spending like 5 minutes trying to work out what order to put the cards in!) summoned a voodoo doll and conduited the wounded witchling and obeyed it to charge Sonnia. He had to burn a soulstone to stop the hit, the witchling was killed in the RSP and Sonnia then took 2 damage-I hadnt planned on this last effect, but It showed me just how great crystal ball and obey can be when used in Tandem! I spent the next few turns conduiting Samuel and using von schill to hold up and pick apart his crew. He took another 4 wounds of sonnia and killing another witchling in tur ns 2 and 3! Sonnia avatared-up turn 4. while coppelius took out Samuel and the rider finished off the final witchling. The austringer kept trying to kill my Tot for like 3 turns and just couldnt take off the final wound. It was then charged by the rider in turn 5 while that man von schill beasted Sonnia, who had managed to wound Coppelius and kill my doll. Turn 6 I ran into his deployment zone having maimed everything and got the full 8. Learning points:The crew worked really well. The tots allowed me to waste a few activations, and to grab deployment zone late on. I prefer running 3 but 2 work ok.The hooded ride is superb at zone denial- well worth his points, and I think I would always use night unless playing a crew with absolutely no range. Even not obeing able to obey him isnt a prob!Von schill (or dopple-schill as i've taken to calling him) can be a 1 man army. I love him. Enough said! (He works particuarly well with a 7 cache Z, as she rarely needs her ss's- I was able to burn them and cheat to high crows late in the turn- his seeker was like a cuddle gun-it wasted Sonnia and 2 stalkers!)Coppelius- nice but THE definition of a glass cannon in non-dreamer crews. Been great for the last 2 games, but I have been wanting to find a regular starter, which I will come to in a minute...Z herself, like the rider was great for Zone denial, and causes a huge amount of probs, allowing the other members of the crew to put down the hurt. Really want to try her avatar form next time I play 35ss! As noted above I want to replace Coppelius in my regular list (or 'all-comers list'). As most of my opponents play 30ss I want to try Kade. I have never used him with Pandora, but think he could be superb (stick him on a flank or near Z and obey/melee expert people to death!). Hes not as versatile as Coppelius (who repeatedly paralyzed Samuel before eating him) but he is VERY hitty, and can be obeyed. He is also difficult to kill-something the rest of my crew can lack. He and candy don't get much love next to the twins, understandably, but as others have pointed out he alone is 6ss and will be in my crew for next game! 30ss Z Cache 5 (bang on avatar and a 3rd tot for 35ss) von schill 10ss 2 tots 6ss Hooded Rider 8ss Kade 6ss Any feedback on the new list? Thanks in advance. Mcdoogle. Edited October 28, 2011 by McDoogle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozz Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 Have never used Kade myself, But my only thoughts would be, one, take 2 not 32 tots:P and Swap kade for a Madness, or even a third tot and take the avatar as she rocks, poisons everything and you get practically an unlimited hand size if you can get severe off with her spell, played Z once and loved it, even if the avatar did get 1 shoted by Seamus. As you still have Von Schill to Obey on your side. Just my thoughts, but i love/hate her avatar depending on if she is on my side or not:P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Ruckuss Posted October 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 Have never used Kade myself, But my only thoughts would be, one, take 2 not 32 tots:P and Swap kade for a Madness, or even a third tot and take the avatar as she rocks, poisons everything and you get practically an unlimited hand size if you can get severe off with her spell, played Z once and loved it, even if the avatar did get 1 shoted by Seamus. As you still have Von Schill to Obey on your side. Just my thoughts, but i love/hate her avatar depending on if she is on my side or not:P Amended...thanks Ozz. I have used madnesses with both Zoraida and Pandora, and find that, great s they can be offensively they can also be squishy. I do keep them around for objective games like treasure hunt (gotta love that obey 8" move twice fom Z and doll m, pick it up and move!) and if I have 4 spare soulstones left over they are almot an auto include. So fir point in all. Avatar is fair point-for most masters now you are almost choosing between a totem or avatar (unless the totem helps with the manifest requirement)...easy to take for granted both Z and aZ bring thei own...so im not really losing out by taking the avatar! She definetly may fav-looking at the way she plays I just think she is beautifully designed (rules and minature) and is fun. Tbh I think thats what I love most bout her-its moments like obeying witchlings to die and take wounds of masters that just appeal to my sense of discord and chaos! I have 2 games 4 resses tomo, so may try Kade....my opponent has all 4 masters and has been favouring Kirai of late...not sure how my crew would deal with her. Would LOVE to use Seamus' boomstick or Mcmournings attacks vs their minions! Making nurses overdose/sacrifice expensive minions could also be entertaining! Dopple Schill (von schill- will confuse people with this but hey its my post! lol) is becoming the lynchpin of this crew. I think you need a big hitter to work Z. I like Juju but find him unreliable, Jack Daw just feels new-tube-ish and I like using the mature Neph with Lilith (one day I will manage to grow a tot into a mature-net gain of 7ss for the win!) Its either Collodi, VS or Ophelia for the win methinks. Another use soulstones model is great, and you have 2 master/semi-master models to deal with, plus (in this crew) the "you-cant-shoot-me" hooded rider. In summary will try Kade, will try 4 tots, will try IM/3 tots and avatar (am still consolodating with reg Z atm-deliberately bought the avatar to use asap). Am defienly enjoying the style-I am starting to enjoy her more thn Panda if i'm honest (she has an awful rep for winning at my lgs with all the players who use her- even warmachine players who have never picked up a fate deck associate her with word like filth and power gaming! Ive practically retired mine now....). Her "i'm just gonna mess with your head nomatter what" approach is just great fun..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Ruckuss Posted October 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 Kade didnt really work all that well. I played Avatar Seamus and won 8-4 without taking an avatar. I took oaZoraida against Nicodem during the next game and it enabled me to reach 6-6 draw, I think an effigy and avatar is far more useful than Kade. I am also unsure how effective the hooded rider is againt Resses. May break out Juju or Jack Daw next time..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Undisclosed Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 I'd be interested to hear about Jack Daw, as he is on my to buy list. This has made for good reading, and now i have a quick question (if you don't mind the brief detour). Does immune to influence mean you can't be Obey'd because you are defending against an 'attack'? I ask because i thought that since you are having a WP resist duel to the casting total, that there was no attacker and defender? Back to normal service Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Ruckuss Posted November 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 (edited) I'd be interested to hear about Jack Daw, as he is on my to buy list. This has made for good reading, and now i have a quick question (if you don't mind the brief detour). Does immune to influence mean you can't be Obey'd because you are defending against an 'attack'? I ask because i thought that since you are having a WP resist duel to the casting total, that there was no attacker and defender? Back to normal service He is useful with Z, but I prefer von Schill for sheer damage output. I have has some success with Jack, namely in conjunction with numerous expendable tots- run them at stuff in the no cheat area and you have reasonable stats to gamble with. The best thing to do is to cause a high number of resist duels with obey etc early on, which your opponent needs to cheat, before trying to get of an insti-kill on a key minion once the card are done. His high toughness is also a great counterpoint to the rider I usually run. He also has the fluff-its hinted at in book 3 and I want to know if Jack volunteered to save Malifaux, or whether Z 'volunteered' him. PM Ratty and ask but i'm pretty sure that immune to influence means immune to wp duels, inc wp-wp and wp resist duels, while being a construct (the 2 normally overlap but not always) means that a model is immune to terrifying and morale effects (but not abilities like anaethma. Hope this is all helpful- happy to discuss Z anytime! Edited November 12, 2011 by McDoogle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck Dog Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 Reading this thread is making leaving me dying for a rematch ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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