Living, Undead vs Other

[ProdigalPunk]

Firstly Woe and Nephilim are living and work exactly like normal.

Now that's cleared up lets talk about what I call the Rezer Fallacy. If you are starting up Malifaux and you ask someone what Rezers do they will say they resurrect hordes of unliving from their opponents corpses, and most people come into the game thinking this is their strength. Puppet Wars actually shows what their real strength is much more clearly. It's resilience. Most resurrectionist models have either Hard to Wound and a high wound count or Spirit, which means you have to put in more effort to kill them, on top of that you can take the model they just killed and occasionally bring it back.

Can we get new schemes then please? Since the ones we have now assume this, and are sort of terrible because of it. Also if we could get some more survivable models that would be sweet. If that is our schtick then I think we should not be so close to the bottom of the barrel of it.

Most people think that you can turn anything that dies and drops corpse into new models, but most summons have a high cost involved, be it your (0) action for the turn that could be used for something useful (Arise conflicts with Bolter, Call Belle with Trail of Fear, Monstrous Creation with Scalpel slinging), High :crows card or life in the case of Kirai. A lot of the time you will find these costs actually more prohibitive than corpse counters. A lot of time you have to ask yourself do you want that extra Punk Zombie or do you actually want to Bolster the one which is in the perfect position to take out their expensive model. Do you want to Summon a Canine Remain or do you want to use Scalpel Slinging to get in combat with the enemy and keep yourself protected from shooting. And this leads to you having a Sweet Spot for Summoning.

Luckily Nico has casting expert can summon with a 1 action. Also Bolster is much more effective when there are undead around to buff. Thankfully Trail of Fears only effects living models, so I really only have to worry using that ability once in a blue moon, and almost never in a competitive setting in a match I am worried about winning (Hamlin being the biggest exception). I agree Scaple Sling is a nice ability, and too bad McM is probably our less competitive master despite all his nice tricks. If I have the cards in may hand though, summoning a 7-10 Soulstone model that then gets to make attacks, is better then an extra attack.

For McMourning it's 2 summons a game generally one early on which you generate the counters for from your own dogs and is generally a Frankie, and the second summon normally a Rogue Necromancy which you generate off the body parts harvested from your enemy or passed to you by dogs from your own force dying. So overall for McMourning you don't need corpse counters to run.

Kirai, has two or three different play styles which you can switch between as you play. You can definitely run her as a summoning Master. I've had games where I've rolled through the enemy turning every model that dies into 1 or even 2 friendly models, and it works wonderfully if your opponent creates spirits. However and here is the important thing, she can also be run as a fast moving assassination master and playing her this way you swap a lot of your summons for Ikiryo (which doesn't need you to sacrifice spirits) or to Swirl the spirits you have into the right position. You may want to summon a Shikome, but you normally can do that out of your Seishin Cache for the game. I've had games where I have not sacrificed a single spirit and still won. The most concise showing of this was a game against Pandora, where I had removed every model on her force except her herself and hadn't sacrificed a single seishin for his Kidnap. So with Kirai it's a real toss up between Summoning vs Speed, so if your opponent isn't giving you the resources you need you might as well go for the Speed option and win that way.

McM is probably the best summoner in the current meta, not summoning with him, to me would seem like a mistake. I can only imagine that the pandora player was either inexperienced or some amazing things went your way.

Seamus due to needing a high :crows and the use of a (0) action will at most want to summon 3 times in a game, and your own crew will give you the resources for this.

Nicodem is a buffer/debuffer Master. You can play him entirely for the paralyse and the Bolster, just using your summon to replace models and place a model down if you need it for the objective or to take advantage of the enemy. He's the only Rezer Master I don't play. But from chats to other Rezers this is the strongest way to play him, much better than Arise spam.

I am just glad that Rigor mortis does not only effect living undead models.

Edited September 30, 2011 by ProdigalPunk
fixed quotes

[Buhallin]

Can we get new schemes then please? Since the ones we have now assume this, and are sort of terrible because of it.

How do you figure this?

Army of the Dead requires more corpse counters in play that your opponent has models. If you decide to play for this, it's trivial to accomplish - a swarm of dogs, a Flesh Construct or Rogue, and you're pretty much set against anything short of Gremlins or Hamelin (and if you take this scheme against either of them you deserve the loss). Since most factions lack Graverobbers there's absolutely nothing they can do to the corpses, and everything of yours they kill helps your scheme.

Death After Death is more problematic in general, but that will have more to do with the need to keep all your models alive than whether or not your opponent provides the resources for you to summon. If you're going to try it, Kirai and McMourning would seem the best option, maybe with Nico. Seamus just isn't good at it, but that's the nature of the faction schemes. Ever tried to pull off Power Ritual with Rasputina?

There seem to be a lot of broad assertions about how the Rezzers are designed, and what balances them, which IMHO don't have a lot to back them up. There's a big difference between the general concept of a faction and what they're balanced around.

[DeleteAccount]

Ugh, I never noticed trial of fear only affects living... good thing I've only played Seamus vs the Viks and Lady J, but damn, what a huge downer. Womanizer can still be useful if you need to lure seamus out after his activation and no escape can be annoying if played at the right moment, but yeah, arise my sweet just went up a lot unless I'm banking on a terror bomb, and if I've learnt something about terror is that it's cute but not amazing and it won't usually protect Seamus if people want to reach him.

[Fetid Strumpet]

there's absolutely nothing they can do to the corpses, and everything of yours they kill helps your scheme.

Assuming you aren't speaking of Resser on Resser matches which exacerbate the issue here are the abilities that still remain in the game that according to your belief do absolutely nothing in regards to corpse counters.

Lady Justice - Last Rites

Death Marshal - Final Repose

Executioner - Last Rites

Judge - Final Repose

Wendigo - Graverobber

December Acolyte - Graverobber

Leveticus - Graverobber

Guild Hounds - Bury

Snowstorm - Graverobber

Blackblood Shaman - Graverobber

Hamlin - Voracious Rats

Von Schill - Last Rites

Freikorps Trapper - Graverobber

Malifaux Rat - Hungry Rats

Rat Catcher - Voracious Rats

Gremlin Taxidermist - Graverobber

A.Justice - Final Rites

A. Rasputina - Graverobber

Exorcist - Last Rites & Final Repose

Blessed of December - Graverobber

Spawn Mother - Graverobber

Widow Weaver - Graverobber

[Buhallin]

no escape can be annoying if played at the right moment

Annoying? It's a free charge against any target you choose half-intelligently, and guaranteed if you throw in a Lure. You can also use it for 6" of free out-of-turn movement by No Escaping your own model and cheating low. That's a bit better than annoying

I've learnt something about terror is that it's cute but not amazing and it won't usually protect Seamus if people want to reach him.

Putting aside the obvious limitation of it not working against non-living, Trail of Fear + Face of Death means most minions will need a 10+ to a 12+ to get anywhere near him. Situational dependent on the targets, certainly, but it's a bit more than just "cute".

[Dolomyte]

the rezzer schemes are pretty awful. Army of the dead against nightmares, constructs, spirits, or soulless is pretty hard to accomplish, because its assuming he is or you are killing your own models, and killing more of his models then he kills of yours. Its almost a slaughter esque scheme in that you need to focus on killing your opponents models at the exclusion of everything else to pull it off.

Death after death is also ridiculously hard to pull off by cycling your own models.

compared to sabotage which is an automatic 2 points, power ritual which for most arcanist lists can be an automatic 2 points, kidnap which is an automatic 2 points, reclaim malifaux which can be an automatic 2 points.

Thwart I would say is about as hard as the ressers, gather soulstones is also pretty hard due to the hiring limitations.

Round up and raid are basically the same thing, if you do one you will get the other.

So all in all, I think the resser and outcasts ones are far harder to accomplish then the other factions, so that seems to be a legitimate gripe.

[Dolomyte]

Annoying? It's a free charge against any target you choose half-intelligently, and guaranteed if you throw in a Lure. You can also use it for 6" of free out-of-turn movement by No Escaping your own model and cheating low. That's a bit better than annoying

Putting aside the obvious limitation of it not working against non-living, Trail of Fear + Face of Death means most minions will need a 10+ to a 12+ to get anywhere near him. Situational dependent on the targets, certainly, but it's a bit more than just "cute".

but you cant put aside that issue, since people are complaining about the fact nightmares and soulless are non-living.

[Buhallin]

Assuming you aren't speaking of Resser on Resser matches which exacerbate the issue here are the abilities that still remain in the game that according to your belief do absolutely nothing in regards to corpse counters.

Impressive list, and 100% accurate. I'll admit, I made a few assumptions in my statement.

First, I figured common use. Has anyone EVER seen a Wendigo on the board instead of Essence of Power? Second, I assumed some tiny shred of competence on the player's part - What kind of moron would take the scheme against Lady J? Remember, you know crews before selecting schemes.

I'm also trying to look at the way things will actually play out. There's a small handful of Graverobbers out there, yes, but a lot of them are unlikely to be in a position to do anything to interfere with you. If they do, as often as not it'll be to your good - if my opponent wants to bring his Trapper that far forward to try and snag corpses, I welcome it.

And, finally... Most of what you list is living. Which means that you've got plenty of other corpse generation coming from your opponent, which is what you were complaining about in the first place.

<shrug> But this is quickly shaping up as yet another "nothing you can do will ever convince me" discussions, so I'll move along now.

[Buhallin]

but you cant put aside that issue, since people are complaining about the fact nightmares and soulless are non-living.

Why not? Even if only half the models in the game are living, it's a combo that requires a 10+ for those models to get within 4" of Seamus. If the Neverborn had a model that could do that, I fully expect people would be here crying up a storm about how obviously broken it was.

There are lots of situational abilities in the game. It's getting old and honestly rather embarrassing to my preferred faction to have people whining all the time. Do the rezzers have to adapt more than most to their opponent? Yes. Does that make them gimped or useless or underpowered? Not even a little bit.

There's an underlying bed of false assumptions here that because of the abilities which work on living only, the only options are overpowered with them vs. living or underpowered if they aren't available. There really isn't any support for that. When you face living models you have to use different abilities, but that doesn't mean those abilities are insufficient to let you compete.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I'll admit, I made a few assumptions in my statement.

First, I figured common use.

Von Schill.

And, finally... Most of what you list is living. Which means that you've got plenty of other corpse generation coming from your opponent, which is what you were complaining about in the first place.

Exactly, so when we attempt to achieve our faction specific schemes we either go up against non-living models which very much increases the difficulty, or we go up against living models which often have abilities to use, or destroy the counters we are going for. But I agree you don't agree with my point, and I don't agree with yours. So we are going to have to agree to disagree and will each have to go away believing ourselves to be right and the other to be wrong. Let's move on.

Perhaps you could comment your opinion of the merits of making abilities along the Black Blood line which are always useful except occasionally instead of abilities which are always useless except occasionally.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Fetid Strumpet

[Fetid Strumpet]

Deleted Rephrased better above.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Fetid Strumpet

[Buhallin]

Von Schill.

Oof. Dang, you got me there! If only I'd thought to have my response include something like:

Second, I assumed some tiny shred of competence on the player's part - What kind of moron would take the scheme against Lady J? Remember, you know crews before selecting schemes.

Exactly, so when we attempt to achieve our faction specific schemes we either go up against non-living models which very much increases the difficulty, or we go up against living models which often have abilities to use, or destroy the counters we are going for.

We have very different views on what counts as "often". Your list boils down to three crews that can seriously impede corpse counters - Lady J, Von Schill, and Hamelin. Then you have a scattering of models, many of which never see use at all, and most of the others of which will be singular in a crew.

But I agree you don't agree with my point, and I don't agree with yours. So we are going to have to agree to disagree and will each have to go away believing ourselves to be right and the other to be wrong.

I'd settle for you arguing with something resembling fairness. Digging out the Wendigo and December Acolyte to say "Look! The Arcanists have Graverobbers too!" is vapid at best, and intentionally ignoring 90% of my points while you quote two words is simply dishonest.

Unlike you, though, I'm perfectly willing to be convinced. It's going to take more than the Wendigo to do it, though.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Leave off the personal attacks Buhallin. I have not used vapid or disrespectful arguments against you nor have I been dishonest. I included him out of sake of completeness, and his use is not negligible. Especially as Avatar Raspy will want Corpse counters on the board.

I perfectly accept you are arguing in good faith for the good of the game and your enjoyment of it. Please don't descend to the level of accusing me of not doing the same.

Yet again I'll ask you in a perfectly reasonable way, what is your opinion of the merits of making abilities along the Black Blood line which are always useful except occasionally instead of abilities which are always useless except occasionally?

[011121]

First, I figured common use. Has anyone EVER seen a Wendigo on the board instead of Essence of Power?

*raises hand*

uh, yeah. I used a wendigo instead of an essence of power, and I almost certainly would again.

You're making a lot of assumptions and then lashing out when the assumptions are shown to be wrong.

P.S. in that same game I also used a December Acolyte.

Edited September 30, 2011 by 011121

[Buhallin]

Yet again I'll ask you in a perfectly reasonable way, what is your opinion of the merits of making abilities along the Black Blood line which are always useful except occasionally instead of abilities which are always useless except occasionally?

Two issues here.

First, your entire framing is simply wrong, and incredibly biased. Calling living "always useless except occasionally" is wrong, just as Black Blood's "always useful except occasionally" is wrong. Black Blood has no uses against an entire faction (and I'm sure you'd argue the most popular/common one), and only works against a specific type of attack. Considering that as somehow almost universally useful when having to target living models makes something almost universally useless simply doesn't hold up.

But more importantly, you're letting your biases create a distinction which doesn't exist. Whether you define something as "Only affecting X" or "Affecting everything but X" doesn't matter. It creates a boolean distinction, where everything is in one pool or the other. How you arrive at that is irrelevant to the end result of the effect.

So the only thing that matters is how big each target pool is, taking into account the probability of running into a certain target and how many you're likely to see. That's something the game designer can control perfectly well regardless of the filter they choose to apply.

[Buhallin]

*raises hand*

uh, yeah. I used a wendigo instead of an essence of power, and I almost certainly would again.

You're making a lot of assumptions and then lashing out when the assumptions are shown to be wrong.

P.S. in that same game I also used a December Acolyte.

Nobody has "shown" any assumptions to be wrong. The point I was making was that the vast majority of models on that list were seen rarely enough that they shouldn't be considered a serious influence on whether or not the scheme was viable. What you've "shown" is that instead of trying to address that, you'd rather offer up pedantic direct-quote nitpicking about how ONE person uses the Wendigo.

Which really clinches it, I guess - you win. If someone out there does actually use the Wendigo, well then, I cannot help but concede the point and acknowledge the scheme as truly useless.

If you were serous about evaluating the scheme, you might have broken the model list down by master, and maybe considered the viability of the scheme against their common crews. Something like:

Lady J: Very bad idea, don't do it.

Perdita: No Graverobbers

Hoffman: No Graverobbers

Sonnia: No Graverobbers

At which point we could say "Hey, it looks pretty solid against Guild!" and move on to the Resurrectionists and consider how it would work there (which is a surprisingly complex question).

That would be an interesting discussion to have. But too much to ask, I guess - better to offer up a shallow laundry listing that doesn't actually think about the models involved, or jump up and go "A HA! I used the Wendigo once, and you said nobody EVER does, so you're wrong!"

[Fetid Strumpet]

First, your entire framing is simply wrong, and incredibly biased.

I would disagree with you statement here, but I have never to my knowledge claimed that I am infallible. I usually try to take care to always frame my arguments as opinion pieces, but I'll totally admit I could be biased but you are also guilty of exactly the same thing in your response to my list. You assume that a good chunk of the models I quoted were either hardly ever used or so useless no one would use them.

I can only speak to the environments that I see and take part in, and in those environments that I have seen, studied, or taken part in my arguments are perfectly logical and honest from my perspective.

Most crews have at least one or two living models this is very true, usually however one of those is the Master, which severely limits the utility of any "living only" abilities. Also I'll admit to falling into the very same mistake you found yourself guilty of in making assumptions about what you will face.

For myself in any competitive environment I can very easily count on one hand the total number of living models I come across in a competitive envrionment. And I'll say here before you accuse me of dishonestly again I use that example as a literary Cliche to express how rare it is.

The most commonly occurring crews I run into personally are these:

The Dreamer: most commonly encountered models are Coppelius, the Twins in varying numbers, and Stitched.

Zoraida: Most Commonly used models, Stitched, The Twins in varying numbers, Collodi, Marionettes, Wicked Dolls, Doppleganger

Colette: Most commonly used models Performers, Mannequins, Coryphee, Doves

Lady Justice: Commonly used models include Death Marshals, Peace Keepers, The Judge, Austingers.

The Viktorias: Commonly used models include Taelor, Von Schill, Ronin.

Perdita: Commonly used models include all family members and Guild Hounds.

Ressers: All Masters.

Add to this that if you look at the common minions chosen for competitive play you see that almost all of them are non-living. The only factions that bring any significant portion living models are guild, or outcasts. Sure I'll admit there are other ways to play them, but in the current environment as it stands I will stand by my statement that abilities that specify one type of susceptibility are almost always useless. If your mentioning

and I'm sure you'd argue the most popular/common one

in reference to Neverborn was a veiled allusion to my somewhat well known anti-bias mechanically against them I'd disagree. I'd be way more happy with Necrotic Spray not affecting Neverborn, (well in a way since I'd really prefer it not to hurt MY models) than it currently stands. Since I'd know that anytime I wasn't facing Neverborn it would be useful. As it currently stands it is almost always NEVER useful. Thus how I came to my conclusions.

I'd also like to respond to this as well:

Lady J: Very bad idea, don't do it.

Perdita: No Graverobbers

Hoffman: No Graverobbers

Sonnia: No Graverobbers

Given that the guild has multiple models that can easily destroy Counters or can prevent their Generation that very well easily find their way into lists facing Ressers your argument seems to be Don't take the Resser specific schemes if:

You face Guild at all. They all have access to multiple solid models that either deny or destroy counters. I'll concede it is probably safe in Hoffman's case, for the moment.

You face Ressers at all. Their most likely won't be many counters on the board since you will both be trying to use them.

You play Arcanists. As Three of the masters bring hardly any living models and one of the Master's is very rarely played.

You play Neverborn. As the most popular minion choices are all non living with very few exceptions. The only competitive choices of which I know of being a Lilith Grow list, and a Pandora triple linked Sorrow list.

So really you should only select it vs. Outcasts because you have at least a 50/50 shot of it being effective if they bring Vikkies without Von Schill or Gremlins.

Am I not understanding your point?

Edited October 1, 2011 by Fetid Strumpet

[011121]

Nobody has "shown" any assumptions to be wrong.

Well there was the one about how nobodycould do anything about corpse counters and the one about nobody taking wendigos and the one about nobody taking december acolytes and I think a few more...

But I guess those are nits when I raise them but were serious arguments when you did.

The point I was making was that the vast majority of models on that list were seen rarely enough that they shouldn't be considered a serious influence on whether or not the scheme was viable.

Which is an assumption on your part, not a fact. That's kind of my point. They may well be rare where you play, but please stop assuming (incorrectly for that matter) that that applies to everyone else.

If you were serous about evaluating the scheme, you might have broken the model list down by master, and maybe considered the viability of the scheme against their common crews. Something like:

Lady J: Very bad idea, don't do it.

Perdita: No Graverobbers

Hoffman: No Graverobbers

Sonnia: No Graverobbers

This is a perfect example. Apparently where you play nobody uses death marshals in anything but a Lady J gang. That's not the case everywhere. But you insist it must be and so you insist that 3 Guild masters who have easy access to anti-counter abilities actually have no access to anti-counter abilities.

It's hard to have the deep conversation you crave when you keep assuming facts that aren't even vaguely true.

[Buhallin]

Which is an assumption on your part, not a fact. That's kind of my point. They may well be rare where you play, but please stop assuming (incorrectly for that matter) that that applies to everyone else.

Heh. And yet you alone using the Wendigo (P.S. and the Acolyte!) should apply to everyone else?

So, are you actually arguing that the Wendigo is a totem common choice for Rasputina? I'm not arguing this based on my local meta, I'm bringing it up from watching the Arcanist forums for the last year and a half.

If you actually have some argument that the Wendigo is dominant enough in the meta to warrant its consideration as an impact on the viability of Army of the Dead, then please, make it. Because you seem to be doing a lot of arguing that the point doesn't apply without actually offering any evidence that the point doesn't apply.

This is a perfect example. Apparently where you play nobody uses death marshals in anything but a Lady J gang. That's not the case everywhere. But you insist it must be and so you insist that 3 Guild masters who have easy access to anti-counter abilities actually have no access to anti-counter abilities.

What it's a perfect example of is you not reading. You'll note that I said "common crews" - which generally (to me, anyway) meant the standard sub-factions. The entire thing was dashed off in about 20 seconds, as an example of the framework we could use in such a conversation. In no way was it an attempt at serious analysis, as should have been pretty obvious by the two-word discussion on most of the entries.

So, let's try and get back on track here, maybe? Here, I'll offer a peace offering: I have a bad habit of using words like 'everyone' and 'never' when it's not completely, truly, 100%. Bad habit, I know. Now, do you actually have a view on whether the Wendigo should influence the viability of taking Army of the Dead?

[Buhallin]

Moving this up top, because if this is off it changes the entire discussion:

So really you should only select it vs. Outcasts because you have at least a 50/50 shot of it being effective if they bring Vikkies without Von Schill or Gremlins.

Just to make sure we're clear, you know you get to see your opponent's crew before scheme selection, right? You don't have a 50/50 of them bringing anything - you know both crews before you pick the scheme.

For myself in any competitive environment I can very easily count on one hand the total number of living models I come across in a competitive envrionment. And I'll say here before you accuse me of dishonestly again I use that example as a literary Cliche to express how rare it is.

Nah, that's 011121's job - I knew what you meant. I'm sure he'll be along any minute to argue how horrible you are for stating your personal experience as fact.

You face Guild at all. They all have access to multiple solid models that either deny or destroy counters. I'll concede it is probably safe in Hoffman's case, for the moment.

I think this depends on the crew you're facing. One Death Marshal in a Family crew does not invalidate it. What's more, I'd again argue the scope of your concern. Death Marshal only denies counter when he deals the death blow, and has to forego his Critical Strike to do that, and he himself leaves a corpse, which would be a wash. Executioner's Last Rites is bad, but MAYBE offset by his larger base - you'd have to make sure to control it. Hoffman would likely be an almost autocomplete - he'll have a low model count, as long as you've got more warm bodies than he has bots you're golden.

You face Ressers at all. Their most likely won't be many counters on the board since you will both be trying to use them.

This is true, but I actually think could be more complicated, because you're both also going to be generating a lot of them. Tabling this one for later.

You play Arcanists. As Three of the masters bring hardly any living models and one of the Master's is very rarely played.

This I disagree with. Ramos may be largely corpse-free, but you've got solid potential/synergy with the Steamborg, Johan, and a few other corpse-generators. Raspy will almost always have Silent Ones, the new Blessed is living, and her crew count is almost always very low. Colette has Cassandra and 1-2 Performers, but again, usually a small crew count, especially if the Coryphee are there.

Yet again, though, we have an issue with your phrasing. Lets say we stick with a standard Colette crew (i.e. showgirls). You've got Coryphee + Colette, that's 1/3 living. Add Cassandra, you're 2/4. Add Performers to fill, and half the models are living (although admittedly some can be tough to kill). That doesn't qualify as "hardly any" in my book. Same goes for Raspy - she can easily end up with 3-4 living models in a crew of 6.

You play Neverborn. As the most popular minion choices are all non living with very few exceptions. The only competitive choices of which I know of being a Lilith Grow list, and a Pandora triple linked Sorrow list.

You're not going to get many corpses from them, certainly, but they'll also have very little that can do anything about corpses (I'd only expect the Black Blood Shaman in the Grow list, which will give you TONS of corpses). That means in general I'd look to their crew size. If you have more models than they do, you can easily turn a beatdown into 2 VP.

[011121]

Heh. And yet you alone using the Wendigo (P.S. and the Acolyte!) should apply to everyone else?

Uh, yeah. that's the thing about universal negatives ("no one ever uses wendigos") a single counter example disproves them. I never said everyone uses wendigos, merely that some people do, and a single example proves that.

So, are you actually arguing that the Wendigo is a totem common choice for Rasputina? I'm not arguing this based on my local meta, I'm bringing it up from watching the Arcanist forums for the last year and a half.

I'm arguing that, contra your position, it does get used. Is the essence of power more common? Sure, I'll buy that. But to say arcanists have no access to graverobber because the wendigo is never taken (as you did) is clearly wrong.

So, let's try and get back on track here, maybe? Here, I'll offer a peace offering: I have a bad habit of using words like 'everyone' and 'never' when it's not completely, truly, 100%. Bad habit, I know. Now, do you actually have a view on whether the Wendigo should influence the viability of taking Army of the Dead?

Alrighty. Yes, of course, the wendigo should influence it. If I am playing arcanists and planning to use Rasputina and I know you are playing resurrectionists, the wendigo goes up several notches in terms of usefulness. That means that as an arcanist even if not playing a construct heavy list I still have access to abilities that make the resurrectionists life hell and their specific schemes extremely impractical.

[Buhallin]

Uh, yeah. that's the thing about universal negatives ("no one ever uses wendigos") a single counter example disproves them. I never said everyone uses wendigos, merely that some people do, and a single example proves that.

But you're not being pedantic. Because obviously my point was truly that NOBODY has ever put the Wendigo on the table.

Alrighty. Yes, of course, the wendigo should influence it. If I am playing arcanists and planning to use Rasputina and I know you are playing resurrectionists, the wendigo goes up several notches in terms of usefulness. That means that as an arcanist even if not playing a construct heavy list I still have access to abilities that make the resurrectionists life hell and their specific schemes extremely impractical.

So, you actually think that a Wp 4, Df 4, 4Wd model with no additional defensive options and a 7" threat range that needs to overcome hard to wound to score a Severe for any respectable damage "makes the resurrectionists life hell" because it might get the chance to toss one corpse counter before it dies and leaves another corpse?

Ah... Hm. <shrug> I don't guess there's really any point in trying to argue that.

[Q'iq'el]

Only if you are trying to grow them, which granted is an important power for the tots and younuns but the mature work ridiculously well against non-living.

?!?

Terrifying doesn't work at all against non-living. Everything else a Mature does works just as well on living as on non-living. It is a 10SS model with relatively low Df, Wp and Wd count, but he does hit like a truck.

For the same price you can bring two Punk Zombies or Rogue Necromancy and you can very easily say they work ridiculously well against non-living (and living) as well.

Then there are Black Shaman spells, ability to summon more Lelus or Lilitus and all that - you either need Blood Counters or Corpse Counters for that.

But getting counters is hardly the only problem. Lots of key abilities (not just for ressers) specify "living" or "living or undead". Examples:

Seamus- Necrotic Ministrations, Trail of Fear, Terrifying

McMourning- Master Surgeon,

Nicodem- Empty Vessel (although this is essential a counter ability it's key because of the speed of creating not just counters but MZ immediately),

Kirai- Spirit Anchor (also allows Spirits), Spirit Food,

And again that's only looking at the rezzes, plenty of Guild and Arcanists have similar problems

And Neverborn as well, as I pointed out. It is not faction vs. faction thing, simply.

My argument is that if I have the choice of living, undead of non-living troops there's simply no reason to ever go for the first two. There are plenty of things they are especially vulnerable to and nothing that the latter are especially vulnerable. That's bad. there should always be risks and trade offs in tactical choices. Right now there's nothing but upsides to nightmares and soulless.

But this argument is misplaced and misguided. It's not a choice. It's a characteristic. It is something that's paid for somewhere in the point budget of the character and it is something the crew and the faction is balanced around.

You assume the default choice (living) is somewhat of a worse option. It is not - it is what everyone is. Then the benefits starts with some extra characteristics - Undead not having to take Terrifying tests is also a benefit. They are also non-living for the purpose of the spells that do not bunch up undead together with living (and frankly speaking there are not that many which do). The best example - Bête Noire loses her ability to Paralyze models against other Rezzers just as much as against Nightmares.

In the end, it only is a problem when you let your crew design rely on killing the living opponent and you'll be as much frustrated by Arcanists and some Guild crews, as by some Neverborn crews. Actually you'd probably be better off going with such a crew against Neverborn, than Arcanists (in that you have 2 in 4 chance of meeting a non-living crew among Neverborn, but you have 1 in 4 chance of meeting an entirely living crew among Arcanists and partially non-living crew is just as frustrating as an entirely non-living crew).

The spells and abilities you mention belong to models which have multiple powerful abilities. The fact that some of them stop working against some targets doesn't make these models dramatically weaker - they can just focus on different areas. Most models, and definitely most of the masters, are more or less multipurpose anyway.

Edited October 1, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Ratty]

As Q says, you pay for the model, it's type is rolled into the cost of the model.You might also notice that almost every ranged model in the game is living, there are some exceptions, but they are very few. So as a Rezer player you have to decide which you would rather have. The enemy shooting your Punk Zombies to oblivion, but you get corpse counters or you can get to the enemy unmolested but don't get corpse counters.

And as I said in an early post, some abilities become less useful like summoning, but most models have multiple good abilities. So you move to another style of play. Nicodem plays fine as a Bolster, Decay, Paralyse master. McMourning can get into combat and still do an awful lot of damage.

Edited October 1, 2011 by Ratty

[Q'iq'el]

The more I think about this thread, the more confusing it gets. Do I get this right, that the biggest non-living faction, Rezzers, is complaining the characteristic is stunting their abilities? Hmm.

Ok, let's look at the issue coolly from two angles.

1. What does the non-living characteristic brings to the game.

2. What factions and masters benefit chiefly from the characteristic.

Ad 1.

Non-living models are:

• Constructs
  
• Nightmare
  
• Object
  
• Soulless
  
• Spirit
  
• Undead
  

Benefits of being non-living:

• Direct - Terrifying does not affect them (note: Morale Duels in general do).
  
• Indirect - Some abilities are excluded from working on non-living models.
  

Out of the models on those list, several categories get extra benefits:

• Constructs: complete immunity to Morale Duels.
  
• Objects: Wd mitigation.
  
• Spirits: Move through other models, terrain, do not block LoS (situationally a disadvantage), complete immunity to Morale Duels, 50% damage mitigation from non-magical sources.
  
• Undead: complete immunity to Morale Duels.
  

- There are several abilities in game, which single out Undead models to be affected equally to Living. These are, as far as I remember, abilities related to Corpse Counter generation and Blood Counters generation. The reason they work that way, most probably, is that an entire faction (Rezzers) would be blocking access to these Counters. Interestingly enough, Hamelin and his Vermin and Soulless do block access to these counters, which shows the Designers may consider it balanced where it is just one master in the entire faction, doing this.

- Some particularly powerful abilities, like Bête Noire's ability to Paralyze with mere hits (no need to damage the target), are also mitigated by not working on non-living models.

- Constructs and Spirits are arguably targeted by some specific abilities designed to counter them, but this is a balance issue rather than a clear weakness. Especially Spirit, as a characteristic, provides the biggest pool of benefits.

One could also turn the thing around and say these special abilities are so powerful, they need to be limited to affect only specific categories of models. That would apply, for example, both to Hoffman's Override Edict and to Nicodem's Reanimate (which would perhaps be too powerful if he could summon Spirits as well as Undead). The fact that Nicodem's Decay heals only friendly Undead is another type of such balance-related limitation.

Ad 2.

Let's do this faction by faction:

Resurrectionists:

Leaders who field predominantly non-living crews:

• Seamus
  
• McMourning
  
• Nicodem
  
• Kirai
  
• Molly
  

Chief benefits they receive:

Non-affected by Terrifying, Immune to Morale duels, damage mitigation (spirits only), mobility bonuses (spirits only).

Notes: Resurrectionists are the chief users of Undead and Spirit models in the game and almost the only faction fielding only predominantly non-living crews.

While almost every other faction can hire some Spirits, none has as a free access to these models as Resurrectionists.

Resurrectionists are generally capable of summoning non-living models for free (i.e. no SS cost), which is counter-balanced by limited access to Corpse Counters and high casting value.

Arcanists:

Leaders who field predominantly non-living crews:

• Ramos
  
• Kaeris (depending on build, though)
  
• Rasputina (depending on build, as well).
  

Leaders fielding mixed crews:

• Colette
  

Leaders with option to bring non-living minions:

• Marcus (especially likely to show up with a Spirit)
  

Cief benefits Arcanists receive from non-living models:

Non-affected by Terrifying, Immune to Morale Duels, Damage mitigation (spirits and objects only), mobility bonuses (spirits only, likely in Marcus and Tina crew).

Note: While Arcanist crews are more likely to mix living and non-living models than Resurrectionists, they too can field predominantly non-living crews (Esp. Ramos and Tina). The ability to summon non-living models is not as prevalent as among Resurrectionists and is also limited by need for Counters and high casting value.

Neverborn

Leaders who field predominantly non-living crews:

• The Dreamer
  
• Collodi
  

Leaders fielding mixed crews:

• Pandora
  

Leaders with option to bring non-living minions:

• Zoraida (Dolls, Siblings, some of the Nightmares/Spirits)
  
• Lilith (Siblings)
  

Cief benefits Neverborn receive from non-living models:

Non-affected by Terrifying, Damage mitigation (spirits only), mobility bonuses (spirits only), complete immunity to Morale Duels (spirits and constructs only).

Note: The vast majority of Neverborn models are living. Masters who field those living crews can generally include a nightmare or construct into their crew, but they typically don't field the Spirits. Only the Dreamer fields predominantly Spirit crew and only Zoraida is likely to take some of the Spirit Nightmares from The Dreamer's selection.

For that reason one can argue Neverborn get much less benefit from their non-living models than other factions (since Constructs and Spirits are the best among non-living models and they are not as freely available to all the faction's masters as in some other factions).

Neverborn generally cannot summon new non-living models, with exception of Alps and Siblings.

Ability to summon Alps is situational and limited by Counters (if done by Copellius). Ability to summon Siblings is limited by availability of other Nephilim and Blood Counters, as well as high casting value.

Collodi and Zoraida have ability to summon Dolls easily and Wicked Dolls can summon new dolls with their (0) action. All these abilities are limited by rules (Collodi needs soulstones to summon Marionettes, Zoraida summons only one Voodoo Doll at the time, Wicked Dolls can summon only after killing living or undead models).

Nephilim ability to grow is also limited by availability of counters (from living or undead models), casting value (can be bypassed by Nekima) and presence of Nephilim that can be grown in the crew.

In the end, non-living models have much lower impact on the entire faction than in Resurrectionist case. Spirits are generally speaking less prevalent and ability to summon models far more limited - often in the same way as in case of Resurrectionits (living or undead models dying), but in fact more severly as the Neverborn have to do the killing themselves (no counters from own models being killed) and can't easily get multiple Counters per kill. Most of Neverborn can't even get more than one Counter/summon per activation (since it is their (0) action).

The Guild

Leaders who field predominantly non-living crews:

• Hoffman
  

Leaders fielding mixed crews:

• Lucius (listed under assumption Ryle is likely to be always in)
  

Leaders with option to bring non-living minions:

• Sonnia
  
• Lady J
  
• Perdita
  

Cief benefits the Guild receives from non-living models:

Non-affected by Terrifying, complete immunity to Morale Duels

Note: While the Guild is arguably the only entirely living faction in the game, it also has ample selection of Constructs and some of them are good enough to show up in most of their crews (Watcher, Peacemaker).

What is often overlooked, is that some of the Guild living minions also get non-living like special abilities. Living models from this faction may, for example, not drop corpse counters, be immune to influence, receive Wp bonuses when affected by Morale Duels, not to mention immunities to Sacrifice or Burial and ability to Shrug off effects, which are somewhat unique to the Guild.

While these abilities are not widely available, every crew is likely to bring at least some to the table.

Outcasts

Leaders who field predominantly non-living crews:

• Hamelin (Vermin are living, but don't drop/generate Counters)
  
• Leveticus
  

Leaders with option to bring non-living minions:

• Victorias (quite likely to field Jack Daw and, with Book 3, Lazarus)
  

Cief benefits the Outcasts receive from non-living models:

Non-affected by Terrifying. Few constructs and undead the faction fields are immune to Morale Duels. Jack Daw is arguably one of the most powerful Spirits in the entire game, but some of his chief strengths override his undead/spirit characteristic related benefits and he is available to other factions as a Mercenary.

Note:

The Outcasts get the possibly unwanted honour of having the only group of models with no access to non-living minions - the Gremlins.

Von Shill and his mercenaries are somewhat similar to Guild both in the special rules improving on their living status and anti-non-living abilities they have (mostly focused on Undead, as far as I can remember).

As I've been writing mostly from memory, I might have ommited some important details - please feel free to point those out and I'll improve the list.

I think it would be not a mistake to say Resurrectionists are the faction which benefits from non-living characteristic the most. The chief complaints, as far as I can tell, are not focused around weaknesses, but limitations designed to hold back some of their most powerful abilities, often related to fielding so many non-living models.

Edited October 1, 2011 by Q'iq'el